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Postby Wolverine on June 16th, 2006, 8:33 am

Tanya,
I think maybe we should just drop this subject. Not because I am a homophobic person, as you have sen in my previous posts, but I just don't think it is worth it.

I think that by posting this PM you had, it opened up "Pandoras box".

I can understand you're frustration, and I don't think that was a justified or very sensitive reply by the administrator, but this is a BFS site and lets not evolve it into a forum for arguing personal preferences and ideals.

I know that is not what you ever intended on doing, but obviously this is just a subject that people feel very strongly about and some just can't take it.

I don't think that it is justified for anyone to attack/insult you over this, but is it really worth it. You might say yes, because you probably experience it every day of your life, but I say lets just drop it.

I am not trying to be insensitive to you, because I think it is rediculous that your intial innocent post turned into this, but I just don't think we should continue a argument on this forum that will never go away. No one will ever change ther mind on how they feel on this subject.

With that said, and I should probably address this with a PM but who cares, I felt very similar as some of the people on this site before I met and became fairly close to a few ga-y couples. Those experiences have really opened my eyes. Many people have not had that same experience, and therefore wil keep those opinions until they do. But they will not change their minds because of a debate they had on a BFS forum about ga-y/lesbia'n thoughts, rights, and opinions. Therefore, is it worth it?

Also, although I do not condone the PM reply you recieved from the admistrator, they have done a very good thing for all of us by creating and maintaining this forum, and a PM is a PM and should be kept that way.

Well I hope you don't take this post the wrong way, because I don't want you to. That is one of the bad things about the internet and e-mail, it can't express tone and emotion. Lets just keep talking BFS here and let the ignorant people stay ignorant.
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Postby Guest on June 16th, 2006, 8:54 am

Hi Christina,

Now about the beastiality issue - how can a poor lil animal possibly consent to anything of that sort? - hehe - I know that we often joke about stuff like that, but I find it so horrific that animals are actually violated in this way on a regular basis. I have a friend who volunteers at a pet rescue center, and some of the stories that he tells can give anyone nightmares (especially us pet-lovers). -- On that note, when someone compares beastiality/animal-violence with love & intimacy shared between two consenting people -- it makes me feel especially ticked off and amazed at their incredibly poor judgement and clouded logic (because one thing definitely does not 'go with' the other).

And of course Darby is off limits..hehe - But I am sure that other doggies find Darby quite irresistable! :)

Thank you Christina for your brave first reply,
Tanya
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Postby Christina on June 16th, 2006, 9:14 am

Hi Tanya,

oh oh, I was kidding about the beastiality comment....I think you know that!!!

I don't know if Darby is all that irresistable to other doggies...she has been neutered (like all dogs who will not be bred for the correct reasons should be)OK so now people will find out that I am a card carrying animal activist who eats no veal, and watches animal cops on the animal planet channel. And I cry after every *beep* show, lol. Oh, and I belong to the NRDC also, and I am proud to be a liberal.

That I am sure that will take the heat off of you , Tanya !! NOw I expect some pm's....

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Postby Guest on June 16th, 2006, 9:40 am

Hi Wolverine,

I do appreciate you taking the time to respond to me and I respect your understanding and feelings on the issue - as well as your personal story related to it. I am glad that you posted it instead of PMing me :) I however have to say that I disagree with you just in regard to what happens to work best for me. I see this is a serious civil rights issue

I understand that your opinion is that "no-one will change their mind on the issue so let's just drop it" I see where you are coming from since it is likely that many people's minds will not be changed like (fortunately through you life-experiences) yours was - However if this was the route we took during the peak of our civil rights era, the situation for our African American brothers and sisters would still lag years behind. This post on the forum may not change the mind of the person who posted the reply, but perhaps it can plant a seed and have him think (after the initially peeved feeling) something like: "wow, now that I took a glance at what I wrote to that woman and read some other people's responses, that really was an incredibly homphobic response, full of so much anger - where did all that come from? Was I just having a really bad day? - if I emailed anyone at my job something of this nature - I would likely be fired on the spot - I still agree with some of the things that I wrote but I do not think that I will even send out an e-mail like that ever again".

I just wanted to add that this is a wondersul site, and it has greatly helped thousands of people, including myself and I am not discrediting it - I am very thankful for it. I found this site in panic-mode (like many of you) worrying about sinister illnesses, death, etc. Most wonderful things also have their not-so-perfect side - and I call things as/what they are.

If someone has the right to attempt at degrading/insulting me and many others who identify as I do - then I have the same right to put that comment out there for people to know about it. I honestly feel no need to be silenced about this nor am I neccasarily inviting a full blown 'debate' on this issue. I am just putting it out there for people to be aware.
To answer your question - Yes. To me, it is worth it.

If the 'moderator's' comment to me was the same (comparing me to a child molester, necrophiliac, saying that nobody needs to tolerate or accept me, etc) but instead of referring to my "ga-yness", he was putting down my irish heritage, Christian faith, my being brown-haired, or my Native American ancestry, etc (in other words, other things that have to do with a person's identity which they cannot change/control) - I bet that some people would have different feelings/reactions to this.

Anyway that's about all that I have to say about this.

Wolverine, I agree with you about the internet/e-mail lacking in us being able to fully communicate/express tone and emotions. I take no offense to anything that you wrote - we are all entitled to our opinions. Also in regard to PMs, I agree that they should remain PMs - however I (obviously) feel that there are a few extreme instances that may serve as
exceptions

I do appreciate your taking the time to write/express your opinions on this issue.

All the best,
Tanya




Wolverine wrote:Tanya,

I think maybe we should just drop this subject. Not because I am a homophobic person, as you have sen in my previous posts, but I just don't think it is worth it.

I think that by posting this PM you had, it opened up "Pandoras box".

I can understand you're frustration, and I don't think that was a justified or very sensitive reply by the administrator, but this is a BFS site and lets not evolve it into a forum for arguing personal preferences and ideals.

I know that is not what you ever intended on doing, but obviously this is just a subject that people feel very strongly about and some just can't take it.

I don't think that it is justified for anyone to attack/insult you over this, but is it really worth it. You might say yes, because you probably experience it every day of your life, but I say lets just drop it.

I am not trying to be insensitive to you, because I think it is rediculous that your intial innocent post turned into this, but I just don't think we should continue a argument on this forum that will never go away. No one will ever change ther mind on how they feel on this subject.

With that said, and I should probably address this with a PM but who cares, I felt very similar as some of the people on this site before I met and became fairly close to a few ga-y couples. Those experiences have really opened my eyes. Many people have not had that same experience, and therefore wil keep those opinions until they do. But they will not change their minds because of a debate they had on a BFS forum about ga-y/lesbia'n thoughts, rights, and opinions. Therefore, is it worth it?

Also, although I do not condone the PM reply you recieved from the admistrator, they have done a very good thing for all of us by creating and maintaining this forum, and a PM is a PM and should be kept that way.

Well I hope you don't take this post the wrong way, because I don't want you to. That is one of the bad things about the internet and e-mail, it can't express tone and emotion. Lets just keep talking BFS here and let the ignorant people stay ignorant.
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Postby 1TwitchingTherapist on June 16th, 2006, 9:42 am

Hi Wolverine,

I do appreciate you taking the time to respond to me and I respect your understanding and feelings on the issue - as well as your personal story related to it. I am glad that you posted it instead of PMing me I however have to say that I disagree with you just in regard to what happens to work best for me. I see this is a serious civil rights issue

I understand that your opinion is that "no-one will change their mind on the issue so let's just drop it" I see where you are coming from since it is likely that many people's minds will not be changed like (fortunately through you life-experiences) yours was - However if this was the route we took during the peak of our civil rights era, the situation for our African American brothers and sisters would still lag years behind. This post on the forum may not change the mind of the person who posted the reply, but perhaps it can plant a seed and have him think (after the initially peeved feeling) something like: "wow, now that I took a glance at what I wrote to that woman and read some other people's responses, that really was an incredibly homphobic response, full of so much anger - where did all that come from? Was I just having a really bad day? - if I emailed anyone at my job something of this nature - I would likely be fired on the spot - I still agree with some of the things that I wrote but I do not think that I will even send out an e-mail like that ever again".

I just wanted to add that this is a wondersul site, and it has greatly helped thousands of people, including myself and I am not discrediting it - I am very thankful for it. I found this site in panic-mode (like many of you) worrying about sinister illnesses, death, etc. Most wonderful things also have their not-so-perfect side - and I call things as/what they are.

If someone has the right to attempt at degrading/insulting me and many others who identify as I do - then I have the same right to put that comment out there for people to know about it. I honestly feel no need to be silenced about this nor am I neccasarily inviting a full blown 'debate' on this issue. I am just putting it out there for people to be aware.
To answer your question - Yes. To me, it is worth it.

If the 'moderator's' comment to me was the same (comparing me to a child molester, necrophiliac, saying that nobody needs to tolerate or accept me, etc) but instead of referring to my "ga-yness", he was putting down my irish heritage, Christian faith, my being brown-haired, or my Native American ancestry, etc (in other words, other things that have to do with a person's identity which they cannot change/control) - I bet that some people would have different feelings/reactions to this.

Anyway that's about all that I have to say about this.

Wolverine, I agree with you about the internet/e-mail lacking in us being able to fully communicate/express tone and emotions. I take no offense to anything that you wrote - we are all entitled to our opinions. Also in regard to PMs, I agree that they should remain PMs - however I (obviously) feel that there are a few extreme instances that may serve as
exceptions

I do appreciate your taking the time to write/express your opinions on this issue.

All the best,
Tanya
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Postby Wolverine on June 16th, 2006, 9:46 am

Tanya,
I cannot and will not argue with anything you said, as I feel the same way. All I'm saying is that maybe this isn't the forum to do so. I know this was not you're initial intent and that this subject has evolved past what you expected it to.
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Postby Guest on June 16th, 2006, 12:14 pm

Hi Wolverine,

You are definitely right about this issue evolving way past what I expected. And to answer your question, I see this as the right forum for this since this forum was started by Basso - he was asking the question of why words like "ga-y" and "lesbia-n" are bleeped - I was wondering this as well so I asked the moderator this question. What I posted was the moderator's direct response to this specific inquiry.

Tanya



Wolverine wrote:Tanya,
I cannot and will not argue with anything you said, as I feel the same way. All I'm saying is that maybe this isn't the forum to do so. I know this was not you're initial intent and that this subject has evolved past what you expected it to.
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Postby Wolverine on June 16th, 2006, 1:08 pm

Tanya,
Not to sound like a jerk, but if you didn't want to here a answer to a question like that, you probably should never have asked the question in the first place. You should of prepared yourself for a answer like that. You of all people should know that there are people out there with feelings like that. Everything in this life is not "sugar coated" and there are going to be people who disagree with you or do not look at life the same way. It is one thing to ask a simple question like "Hey are there any other ga-y/lesbia-n twitchers out there?" That is a simple question to see if anyone here has something in common with you. But now it is starting to look to many people here like you are crusading for a cause. I'm not saying that is what you are doing, but that is what it looks like. Who cares if the site is censored? Would you rather have it were someone could use those terms in derogatory way? Of course not, so with almost everything in life, there are postives and negatives to it. What is the saying "you can't have your cake and eat it too" If the site wasn't censored and someone used the terms in a derogatory way, wouldn't you be complaining that the site should be censored? And who cares what the moderators intentions were to the site being censored. I know I wish it were not because I have a mouth like a truck driver. I would love to say *uck, *hit, *iss. Oh no, now I've insulted truck drivers? But I really don't want to argue about this anymore, this site is not about all of this stuff.

Now I look like the insensitive jerk, and I'm tempted to not post this because I'm fueling the fire that I want to be put out. But here I go anyway. Lets start talking BFS again.

How are your twitches doing? Mine are still here and driving me nuts! I'm not freaking out over them, I'm just sick of them. But I guess I gotta learn to live with them because I don't think they will be going away anytime soon.
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Postby Guest on June 16th, 2006, 6:42 pm

Hi Wolverine,

OK - I would agree that at this point you are beginning to sound a bit insensitive.

I really don't feel that I invited the crazy response by asking a simple question. What was messaged to me was beyond something that is sorta on the negative side (perhaps you might want to read it over). I am living in reality, so I did not expect some warm fuzzy answer. Something very matter-of-fact, to the point, or even something a lil on the crass side would be fine! But that answer was preposterous.

Even though I live in a liberal/urban area I am very much aware of how some people view que-er isues and people - but the world is changing (slowly but changing nonetheless) and every day, fewer people hold such ignorant beliefs. To answer your question, no - I do not expect people to sugar-coat things for me, but coating it with pure sh*t is not the best idea either. When people are completely out of line (in a disrespectful way), they need to know it will not go without consequence. Perhaps next time they will think twice before gracing someone with their ignorant bull-sh*t.

This now has little to do the initial question of why this site is censored (I actually do not believe that it is that way as an attempt to prevent bigotry) My initial question seems to have spiraled into a different issue entirely. If you and others see this as me 'crusading for a cause' - that's OK - I do not mind if you see it that way. But I see it from another angle (which I posted previously). There are quite a few others (both ga-y and straight) on this site who PMed me, thanking me for speaking out about this - yet feel too intimidated to post thier opinions publically.

Anyway -- I am glad to hear that you are no longer freaking out so much about your twitches. Mine are there still, along with the other irritating symptoms - and I think that my twitches happen to be allergic to hateful comments :)

-Tanya



Wolverine wrote:Tanya,
Not to sound like a jerk, but if you didn't want to here a answer to a question like that, you probably should never have asked the question in the first place. You should of prepared yourself for a answer like that. You of all people should know that there are people out there with feelings like that. Everything in this life is not "sugar coated" and there are going to be people who disagree with you or do not look at life the same way. It is one thing to ask a simple question like "Hey are there any other ga-y/lesbia-n twitchers out there?" That is a simple question to see if anyone here has something in common with you. But now it is starting to look to many people here like you are crusading for a cause. I'm not saying that is what you are doing, but that is what it looks like. Who cares if the site is censored? Would you rather have it were someone could use those terms in derogatory way? Of course not, so with almost everything in life, there are postives and negatives to it. What is the saying "you can't have your cake and eat it too" If the site wasn't censored and someone used the terms in a derogatory way, wouldn't you be complaining that the site should be censored? And who cares what the moderators intentions were to the site being censored. I know I wish it were not because I have a mouth like a truck driver. I would love to say *uck, *hit, *iss. Oh no, now I've insulted truck drivers? But I really don't want to argue about this anymore, this site is not about all of this stuff.

Now I look like the insensitive jerk, and I'm tempted to not post this because I'm fueling the fire that I want to be put out. But here I go anyway. Lets start talking BFS again.

How are your twitches doing? Mine are still here and driving me nuts! I'm not freaking out over them, I'm just sick of them. But I guess I gotta learn to live with them because I don't think they will be going away anytime soon.
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