a matter of faith

This forum is for posting your personal experiences with BFS: symptoms, doctor visits, fears, etc.

Please use this forum to post give and recieve encoragement and reassurance from sharing the trials and triumphs you have faced.

Moderators: JohnV, Arron, garym

Postby Arron on September 13th, 2004, 11:15 am

Sure, anyone can PM me anytime. I don't mind. I can only answer when I have the time though.

Ava, I agree that sin might bring about the bad things in life, but then again, look at a LOT of "bad" people that have great lives. And there are a lot of them.

I have to say, I don't believe in "original sin". What Adam and Eve "supposeddly did", was one "minor" little thing, and I can't "love" a god that can't "get over it" already! THEY did that sin, NOT me! If god can't figure THAT out and he has this thing about wanting to punish ALL of his "children" for something they had no say or partaking in, than it should be OK for US to beat the hell out of ALL of our kids when one does something wrong, right? Let's BLANKET punish everyone when someone does something wrong and call it "original crime". Let's put EVERYONE in jail and that'll be the solution, OK?. After all, EVERYONE is born "condemned UNTIL you get baptized and KNOW god, so what's the difference?

I used to wear a shirt that said "Kill 'em all... Let God sort 'em out!" Isn't that kind of what God himself is saying. "Know me or you will rot in hell"??? Get rid of your "original sin" (that someone else did) or you will rot in hell!

Why would a "loving" and "forgiving" god punish ALL of his so called children since the beginning of time because of one minor little thing? I don't even like fruit!! Give me a Twinkie anyday!

Good people are good people, and there are good people all over the world that have never even heard about religion, (nor Christianity anyway), and if no one teaches them about it, how are they supposed to be able to go to heaven under god's name?

To me, what Christianity says is that even if you are the best, most giving, loving person in the world and you don't get baptized to make-up for some minor little furit eating thing that happened in the beginning of man kind, and you happen to not be taught about Christianity, you will rot in hell for an eternity. That to me, I have to say is complete BS.

If that were true, I wouldn't WANT to be with some "god" like that. What other little stupidities are you going to learn once you get to heaven?? You can't say one way or the other! What if you get to heaven and there's yet ANOTHER bible filled with all kinds of HEAVENLY accounts and it's an eternity of whacked-out, "mysteries", because afterall, it does say "God works in strange ways", right?

So, if a person is a good person yet never had the opportunity to learn about god, you mean he can't SEE that that person was a great soul, and he will condem him to hell anyway, just because he never got a chance to read some over exaggerated book and have a few drops of water poured on his forhead?

You also mean that God, the All mighty, loving one, who can FORGIVE a person for unbelievable sins (murder, adultry, stealing, etc.) just for asking for forgiveness, but he won't forgive a VERY good person for not having the OPPORTUNITY to know him? Or he can;t forgive EVERY SINGLE ONE of his children since Adam and Eve ate some fruit? That's the god the world loves? Real forgiving, isn't he! No thanks!

This is just MY opinion. If YOU want to believe that, that's your right. I am not slamming anyone or demeaning anyone for doing so. It is just as much your right as it is mine to believe what I want, and I won't make fun of it or demean you for it, nor would I expect to be made fun of myself, but I DO have questions and "issues" with things that just don't seem right, and I can't sit-by and not question things, so please don't take MY questioning as slamming. I am simply stating MY opinions and views on the matter. I have no problem what so ever with ANYONE believing what they want. You want to go kill yourself so your soul can go fly away to some UFO hidden in the Hale Bop commet's tail? Go right ahead. Can I have your car and jewelery after you're gone though? :lol: Afterall, you won't be needing any of those anymore.

Also, on praying. Is it safe to say that If I robbed a bank and while being chased in my get away car, I keep saying out loud; " God, don't let them catch me, God let me get away!", and if I do get away, were MY prayers answered?? Think about it. So... I am going to rob someone so I can get some more drugs because I need another fix, and I say, God don't let me get caught or hurt. All I want is some more drugs", and I rob and stab someone to get their money. Did God answer my prayers? I mean, come-on! People will say, "God will take care of me" or "Its' all in god's hands now". So I guess God takes care of loser druggies, thieves, rapists and murderer's too because they pray??? :roll: Afterall, "it's all in HIS hands", right?

A LOT of drive-by gang banger's wear crosses around their necks, go to church on Sunday and are VERY religious, to the point where usually only a padre can venture into their turf without concequences, yet they steal, rape, kill and do all kinds of other bad things to innocent people, including children, so because they pray and go to church and all of that hokus pokus, they are going to go to heaven because they ask for forgiveness? I'll tell you what then, I'll be the baddest, meanest, thug on the planet and do what I please at the expense of everyone else, and at the very last minute, before I take my last breath, I'll say I love God and ask for "forgiveness" and see where I end-up.

It just doesn't make any sense to me, and if God wants people to know him and to love him, he needs to make things a little more clear and not by some old book that's been rewritten a thousand times, mis-interpeted by laungages that don't have vocabulaires like we have today, and full of "fish stories" that get exagerated everytime someone re-tells the story. How big was that fish again? Yeah, I didn't think it was THAT big! EVERY story get's exaggerated. You can't even tell one small sentence to 10 people in a circle and have it come back the same, so how can you say that what someone said 2,000 - 4,000+ years ago even happened? Especially since way back then, people were REAL naieve, uneducated and un-worldly. What maybe have seemed like a "miracle" to them, might have only been a small scientific phenomenon or some Las Vegas illusion of some sort. We weren't there, so we can't say for sure.

Ever see a car accident and hear the stories of how it happened? You'll ask 10 people the same question and they all saw 10 similar, yet completely different things. Doesn't it seem logical that this very same thing is how the bible miracles have happened? Why did so many things happen so long ago, and nothing "substantial" has happened since then? Could it be that we are wiser now and don't view lightning or some burining bush as a godly event? After all, it strikes the earth some 6,000,000 times a day on average and causes major forest fires, not just some small bush in the middle of the desert. So what else was supposed to burn around it, the sand? If you saw an airplane back then, they would have thought it was god.

Again, I'm not saying there isn't a god or some kind of higher being, but I think were here on our own and it's up to us to be as good as we can to each other. I do believe though, that the bible is a little far fetched and has quite a few "fish stories" in it. After all, it was written by PEOPLE that either saw the accounts or "heard" about the accounts.

Ask your husband how big that fish was that got away, or how fast his car was when he was a kid, and see how his own stories change, now turn that into a "godly" story about a "miracle" and see how awesome it becomes. Then have your foreign friend translate it into their language, then into another one and back to English again and see what has become of that story. Now print, reprint and re-write it over and over again and see how more off the truth it gets. That's all I am saying...
Arron
Moderator
Moderator
 
Posts: 753
Joined: August 19th, 2002, 10:25 pm
Location: Sonoma, CA.

Postby Ginlyn on September 15th, 2004, 12:53 am

I just had to add one other thing I forgot to say in my post,

I don't believe that God sits upon a mighty throne judging this one, and that one, and this one will get a disease, and that one will be famous, etc.

I believe we were given free will (as the STORY of Adam and Eve illustrates) Yes, I believe the bible has stories that aren't meant to be taken literally, but are moral points that are illustrated. I don't really know, since I wasn't there. Maybe there really was a Garden of Eden? Who am I to say?

I can only speak for myself when I say that my faith is just what it is. I can't provide facts, or proof. I can only say what I believe in comes from my heart, and I believe that good and evil both exist. I do also believe in the power of prayer.

I also can't believe I posted this. It is NICE to have a truly adult discussion, but I generally stay far, far away from religion and politics. I must be bored this evening! :wink:

Okay, enough from me. Hope your week is going well.
Ginlyn
Saint
Saint
 
Posts: 1511
Joined: June 13th, 2004, 3:08 am

Postby Xapno Mapcase on September 15th, 2004, 6:06 am

Great discussion!

One thing that's always interested me about the Adam and Eve story - if they were forbidden from eating the fruit from the tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, how could they be held accountable for the crime when before they ate the fruit they didn't know the difference between good and evil? The whole point of eating the fruit was that it "made them like God" and taught them the difference between right and wrong, yet in the story God acts like they should be able to know it is wrong to eat the fruit prior to eating it!

Granted, I am a non-believer, but I just find it hard to understand how anyone can take this story literally.

Pardon my theological musings.

-Robbie
Xapno Mapcase
Member
Member
 
Posts: 31
Joined: September 1st, 2004, 6:21 pm
Location: Florida

Postby amy_twitch on September 15th, 2004, 10:51 am

Hi all...

I was just reading my newspaper...and interestingly, our TV critic is discussing a show that will air tonight and next Wed on PBS called "Does God Exist".

He says it's a refreshing show with two opposing viewpoints (based on works from Sigmund Freud and C.S. Lewis). He says: "There is no right answer here, no positics or preaching, just enormous, eloquently asked questions: What does it mean to be moral? Why is there so much evil in the world? Is death our destiny? What is faith? Is there a God?"

A panel of distinguished people hold an interesting discussion. My TV critic adds that: "One of the most captivating people on the panel is Frederick S. Lee, an infectiously pleasant Harvard physician anda man of science who cannot understand how a God could allow so much human pain, yet has unshakable faith."

Should make for an interesting show that goes hand in hand with this thread of discussion. I live in Northern California--so I don't know if this program is being shown nationwide. Check your local PBS listings, as they say....

Amy
amy_twitch
Hero
Hero
 
Posts: 414
Joined: June 13th, 2004, 8:52 pm

Adam and Eve

Postby twitchypoo on September 15th, 2004, 11:35 am

They should have stayed away from the tree because God told them to, not because they knew better. They didn't know better, but God told them not to touch it. Eve's first response to the serpent was proper. God told us not to eat from that tree. The lure of being "like god" was too tempting for Eve. It is too tempting for us even today as we look at science and how people try to create things they can't. (cloning) We are not God, we never will be, we will never even get close to His Greatness, nor should we try. I think it takes society down a very scary road when we put ourselves above our Maker.
Just as we know better than our children that they should not run in front of a moving car, God knew they should not eat from that tree. It brought sin into the world, hence, the penalty of sin is death. Blood needs to be shed. That is why the Isrealites had to sacrifice a perfect lamb, to cleanse them from their sins. Jesus was the perfect Lamb, cleansing us from our sins. No more sacrifice is need. He completed it. My flesh will die, but I will live on in Heaven with Him. I believe the Adam and Eve story literally happened. God placed that tree there to give them a choice, which we also have. By the way, the reason Jesus is able to cover us all is because He is GOD! He took our place.
We can choose to live for Him or not.

I am glad that no one has been offended by any of the posts. It is great to have a nice conversation, even if our beliefs don't match.
twitchypoo
Interested
Interested
 
Posts: 18
Joined: June 10th, 2004, 12:40 pm

Postby Arron on September 15th, 2004, 11:01 pm

It's Ok that our views don't match or that we agree or disagree with each other. That's what makes this "free country" such a nice place, and idiots like those wrap heads in Iraq that want to kill everyone that doesn't follow Allah, such whacko's. You can believe what you want to believe, and I can believe what I want to believe and no one has to ridicule (or kill each other) for it. I don't beat the hell out of Jehova's Witnesses when they come knocking on my door at 7 am on Sunday mornings (the ONLY day I get to sleep-in. I do leave my nasty dog out sometimes and HE takes care of them though :lol: I don't make fun of Mormon's for not drinking drinks with caffeine in them or celebrating birthday's. If that what they want to do? Then that's their choice.

I think in the Adam and Eve thing though, neither one of them must have had belly a button and Adam must not have had a "tally whacker", being that Eve was a secondary after-thought, (why would you NEED a weener if you weren't first designed to reproduce?) and I have to say as well, that God might have warned them a little more of the "severity" of the sin of eating the fruit of the forbidden tree. I mean to tell a little white lie isn't exactly the same as murdering someone. It's also a minor little thing to to accidentally see a beautiful person and have amoment of lust (which it clearly says in the bible to not lust after another mans woman), yet it's a different story to grab her and rape her, yet if you knew that doing even the minor little one had the same outcome as the worst one (condemned to hell or causing the entire population of the rest of man kind of have an "original sin" from that poiint-on), is a little "out there" (to me anyway) and extreme.

That goes hand in hand with "kill 'em all, let God sort 'em out". I mean, come-on, they ate a little fruit for god's sake. Let it go. It's not like Adam invented the first gun and decided to shoot and kill everything living thing that walked the planet, or that he caught the Garden of Eden on fire and burned it all to a pile of ashes when he lit his new invention, called the "cigatrette". They ate a little fruit and were coaxed by Satan himself, so if God is all "loving" and "forgiving" he sure didn;t forgive them much, Kind of makes me wonder how much he's going to "forgive" all of you out there that follow "his word". Maybe he'll cast you out of heaven because he is so forgiving.

That's the mystery of God I guess. I didn't say I was a non believer. I just said I don't believe in "god hokus-pokus", or that god answers prayers of some and not for other's. Stand in front of an on-coming truck on the freeway and pray all you want. If the driver can't stop in time or swerve, you are going to be his new hood ornament and a new brown stain in that lane.

I'm sure all of the kids on Russia that just got killed by those loser cowards with the explosives, prayed too, but it didn't do them much good either, but some of the *beep* terrorists got away scott free. If God is such the "all might one", I dont care if he works in strange ways or not, he needs to get off his butt and get some of that lightning of his and vaporize those bastards. He made the earth shake in the battle of Jericho for a few people, I think it's time for him to start making things like that happen again, like cause an earth quake and cave-in Bin Laden's hideout with him and his loser cronies in it!

Whether you believe or not, it is nice to have a "nice" conversation about this subject. Like I said before, this is America and it's nice that people can have their OWN opinions and feelings without a government or a religion or someone looking over their shoulder, telling them what they can or can't do.
Arron
Moderator
Moderator
 
Posts: 753
Joined: August 19th, 2002, 10:25 pm
Location: Sonoma, CA.

Postby Ginlyn on September 22nd, 2004, 12:19 am

The story of Adam and Eve is a story, I believe, not to be taken literally, but rather an example of free will.
Ginlyn
Saint
Saint
 
Posts: 1511
Joined: June 13th, 2004, 3:08 am

Postby Floater on September 24th, 2004, 6:48 pm

i dont think prayer will help bfs at all. to me it would be like concentrating on a rock and wishing it would go away. thats just my opinion. klonopin seems to help though
User avatar
Floater
Saint
Saint
 
Posts: 978
Joined: March 17th, 2003, 6:24 pm
Location: Portland OR

prayer helps me so much

Postby twitchypoo on October 20th, 2004, 9:21 am

i disagree. I think prayer has been one of the only things to help me cope through some really fearful times. It reminds me of God's faithfulness and His promises to me. Prayer and reading scripture. That is my medicine. Granted, I don't have anything serious going on, but if I did, I would pray for the same attitude. God stretches me and grows me. Fear was one of the things He took the benefit of. Fear is not from God, but He will use it and good will come. Glory to HIM for that.
twitchypoo
Interested
Interested
 
Posts: 18
Joined: June 10th, 2004, 12:40 pm

Can't say much

Postby Davey on November 30th, 2004, 1:57 pm

I am a spiritual person. That said, I am also an atheist, so I don't buy into faith much.

Interestingly, the view by many here is based on Christianity. What if Christians are wrong, and Muslims have it right? Arron wonders why god hasn't caused an earthquake to cave in Bin Laden's hideout. Maybe god is on his side? Maybe the Qur'an is right and the Bible is wrong? Who knows? I doubt both, because both the Qur'an and the Bible are filled with contradictions, inconsistencies, and factual errors. I could just as easily say that the universe was created by the Invisible Pink Unicorn. Or Zeus, for that matter. Who could prove me wrong?

As a scientist, I just can't abandon my rational and critical thinking at the church door.

A favorite website: Internet Infidels
Cheers,

Dave

Proud sufferer of Cramp-Fasciculation Syndrome since June 2001.

"Do not fear death tomorrow so much that you forget to live today."
User avatar
Davey
Selfless giver of time
Selfless giver of time
 
Posts: 246
Joined: August 29th, 2002, 5:14 pm
Location: West Lafayette, IN

Postby JohnV on December 10th, 2004, 2:39 pm

It's tough for me to refrain from moving this post to The Lounge, but I will let it remain for now, since it remotely touches on dealing with BFS and other hardships.

However, I would ask that, as has been the case so far for the most part, that this be kept a civil discussion.

My main purpose for this board is to discuss BFS and support those who suffer with it. I don't want it to stray from that mission, as so we don't miss the chance to help people.

So, Please ask yourself before posting "with this post, am I adding to the discussion, or just taking a jab and someone with differing views?" If it's the later, don't bother.

That having been said, here's my addition to the conversation in the interest of furthering it in a more nuanced direction:
Please consider the viewpoints that you hold. Ask yourself if you really given serious study and thought in a truly empirical way to those views, or are they a result of convenience?

For those who believe in God, we have to ask ourselves, am I projecting on God what I think He should be (which bears with it the obvious implication of my own flawed persona, for who can call themselves perfect?) or am I allowing myself to see who He is?

For the record in the interest of full disclosure: I am currently Deacon at a Reformed and conservative Presbyterian church in Philadelphia, and I believe that the Bible is the inerrant word of God. I don't believe that you have to leave you understanding of science at the church door (and we have many people in the congregation who, as true leaders (in some cases true household names) in their fields: medicine, academics, the sciences, etc.) would agree. We can and should certain have those discussions within the pale of orthodoxy. People of greater stature than us certainly have. Do we know what they said?

I believe that God does what will bring him glory, even though often that is impossible for us to understand. Sometimes He answers our prayer in the way we would like, sometimes He doesn't. But in any case, it's what is needed, no matter how large or small the prayer, and no matter how hard it is for us to understand. Remember, He is the only one that knows the big picture.
JohnV
Webmaster
http://www.AboutBFS.com
User avatar
JohnV
Site Admin
Site Admin
 
Posts: 72
Joined: July 23rd, 2002, 3:33 pm
Location: Southern NJ, USA

Course of the discussion

Postby Davey on December 10th, 2004, 5:53 pm

John V -

I agree that the discussion be kept civil. So far, I think it has. Religion is a touchy subject. As an atheist, I am keenly aware of the sensitivity of the issue. But I am also aware that atheists, in general, are scorned and considered an anathema in American society. I find that the Christian ideal of "Treat others as you want to be treated" is not widely practiced.

I don't want to "jab" at anyone else, and don't think I have done so. When it comes to religion, however, voicing one's support of a particular belief is often times interpreted as an attack on another's belief. You may believe that the Bible is the inerrant word of God. However, a Muslim believes the same of the Qu'ran. Both can't be right. My study of the Bible and the Qu'ran have convinced me that neither are. If my statement offends, then please accept my humble apology.

My journey to atheism has made me a student of comparative religion. I was baptised Roman Catholic and attended catechism for 13 years. As a teenager, I actually considered joining the Seminary to become a Priest, but the vow of celibacy killed the deal. I have since renounced my faith. I have done a lot of research on many of the world's religions, Judeo-Christianity, Mormonism, Islam, Buddhism, Zoroastrianism, etc. and found no compelling evidence for any of them. However, what is not compelling for me may be compelling for you.

Atheists aren't bad people. They love their children and want a bright future for them. They want peace. They want suffering to end. They like hanging out with friends at a backyard barbeque. They share many of the same values as people of faith. In the end, we are all human. Our self-awareness and ability to think beyond ourselves makes us unique in the animal kingdom. I remember a song from the 1980's at a particularly tense time between the United States and the Soviet Union. During that time, many referred to the Soviets as "Godless commies." Yet, they were no different than us. In the song Sting sang: "I hope the Russians love their children too." In the end, they did and still do.

In your post you said:

That having been said, here's my addition to the conversation in the interest of furthering it in a more nuanced direction: Please consider the viewpoints that you hold. Ask yourself if you really given serious study and thought in a truly empirical way to those views, or are they a result of convenience?


I would also add that we should all give serious study to alternative views, as well as the criticisms of views you may hold to be true. I think the application of critical thinking skills is paramount. For many of us, to question one's religion is to question one's identity, one's very being. This is a very difficult thing to do. And when someone else questions things, it can seem like a direct attack.

For some, faith may be vital to coping with BFS. I read some interesting articles in the journal American Psychologist (Jan. 2004 issue). They had a series of papers on religion and health. Their results showed some evidence that faith helped, but they felt that there wasn't enough data. However, they made no distinction between religions: They just considered religiousness and spirituality. Kind of hard to quantify for a scientific study.

That said, I am a spiritual person. That may seem odd, being that I am an atheist. But it doesn't seem odd to me. :)

Peace, Shalom, Asalaamu alyakum
Cheers,

Dave

Proud sufferer of Cramp-Fasciculation Syndrome since June 2001.

"Do not fear death tomorrow so much that you forget to live today."
User avatar
Davey
Selfless giver of time
Selfless giver of time
 
Posts: 246
Joined: August 29th, 2002, 5:14 pm
Location: West Lafayette, IN

Course of the discussion

Sponsor

Sponsor
 

Previous

Return to Experiences with BFS

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 6 guests