"Hierarchy of needs" switcheroo-now watch no one p

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"Hierarchy of needs" switcheroo-now watch no one p

Postby basso on December 15th, 2005, 4:35 pm

This post is a continuation of:

http://nextination.com/aboutbfs/forums/ ... 0967#30967

Jodi said:

Okay, so I looked it up, and FWIW here it is...

Maslow's hierarchy of needs
1- Biological/Physiological needs - basic life needs - air, food, drink, shelter, warmth, sex, sleep, etc.
2- Safety needs - protection, security, order, law, limits, stability, etc.
3- Belongingness and Love needs - family, affection, relationships, work group, etc.
4- Esteem needs - achievement, status, responsibility, reputation
5- Cognitive needs - knowledge, meaning, self-awareness
6- Aesthetic needs - beauty, balance, form, etc.
7- Self-actualization - personal growth and fulfilment
8- Transcendence - helping others to self-actualize

I do think there's a lot of truth to this, but in reality I don't think it can be boiled down quite so neatly. (And I don't necessarily agree with all of it either, after all, he put sex at the first level, and if it were really that basic of a need I would have died long ago ).

Don't you think it's true though that you're not going to be too worried about beauty if you're not safe, and your thirst for knowledge will be put on hold when you have a severe thirst for water?
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Postby basso on December 15th, 2005, 4:39 pm

Basso then said:

Yes, of course a thirst for water is penultimate, but neither you nor I are thirsty and so this point is academic.

Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs is only a small part of what he believed. In fact he based the model on examples of highly successful people; stating that a model based on emotionally stunted people, emotionally crippled or the irrational would yield a very different model. In other words it was an ideal based upon his idea of what success was. It contains elements of truth, but like all generalities it is the omissions which speak volumes. Now wait!! Before you think that I am dissing the Maslow meister, I have included his thoughts on how people should be educated. It was quite a treat to discover this because I think the following thoughts might be some of the omissions of the Hierarchy. I feel many of the following thoughts are: "like totally right on, Man!"
Basso

We should teach people to be authentic, to be aware of their inner selves and to hear their inner-feeling voices.

We should teach people to transcend their cultural conditioning and become world citizens.

We should help people discover their vocation in life, their calling, fate or destiny. This is especially focused on finding the right career and the right mate.

We should teach people that life is precious, that there is joy to be experienced in life, and if people are open to seeing the good and joyous in all kinds of situations, it makes life worth living.

We must accept the person as he or she is and help the person learn their inner nature. From real knowledge of aptitudes and limitations we can know what to build upon, what potentials are really there.

We must see that the person's basic needs are satisfied. This includes safety, belongingness, and esteem needs.

We should refreshen consciousness, teaching the person to appreciate beauty and the other good things in nature and in living.

We should teach people that controls are good, and complete abandon is bad. It takes control to improve the quality of life in all areas.

We should teach people to transcend the trifling problems and grapple with the serious problems in life. These include the problems of injustice, of pain, suffering, and death.

We must teach people to be good choosers. They must be given practice in making good choices
Maslow


That took me a long time, so I hope it's appreciated. :wink:
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Postby SuziQ on December 15th, 2005, 5:07 pm

Well, there are issues with the hierarchy of course. One could argue that Christopher Reeve wasn't getting too many of his basic needs met... in a "normal" way at least (especially not the 'sex' one, and he was a man, after all.) When he was first injured, comatose, not breathing or doing anything on his own it was his wife's love that sustained him, so how does that figure in the hierarchy? (Yes I believe that with all my heart--though I can't prove it scientifically.) So love prevailed over level 1. And though his physical challenges remained, he was still able to make a life for himself within the scope of his new limitations.

He was ultimately able to find purpose, meaning, love, romance and fulfillment.

I agree that our priorities shift when the most basic needs don't get met, but the human spirit has a great propencity toward adaptation, compensation, and perseverence. We cope, we adjust, and we keep going.

"I get knocked down, and I get up again...you really can't keep me down" is the chorus of my personal theme song. I suspect Maslow would have loved it.
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Postby JodiD on December 15th, 2005, 7:02 pm

Maslow's hierarchy of needs pertains to mortal life. Maybe someone should come up with a hierarchy of needs on a grander scale. What you learn in your life experience and the amount of spiritual growth you do is what will count for the most after this life is over. So there are needs that transcend even the most basic physical needs if you look at it that way. (Of course, if you die of starvation, that would tend to limit the amount of spiritual growth you can do, so taking care of physical needs is kind of important too. :lol:) I think that most of our spiritual growth happens in the context of human relationships. I think that's the main thing we came here for. That's why this discussion came up in the first place.

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Postby wjjw on December 15th, 2005, 7:45 pm

Maybe someone should come up with a hierarchy of needs on a grander scale

Many have. They can be found in the teachings of Patanjali, Buddha, Jesus…

Of course, if you die of starvation, that would tend to limit the amount of spiritual growth you can do

Who says spiritual growth stops when you die?

Cheers,
-Bill
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Postby wjjw on December 15th, 2005, 8:35 pm

basso wrote:I don't know because my mind has not drifted there yet, and I do not see the truth or untruth of reincarnation in my own mind's eye.

No big deal, it’s pretty common, and not at all necessary for our purposes. I’ve heard that people who have died don’t often like to think about it either. And since they can stay where they are for so long (no bodies to wear out), for them, it’s kind of like “death denial” in reverse. :lol: It's all a matter of perspective.

Since you have quoted Kahlil Gibran several times:
A little while, a moment of rest upon the wind, and another woman shall bear me." --The Prophet, Kahlil Gibran

Cheers,
-Bill
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Postby basso on December 15th, 2005, 10:10 pm

I think hierarchy is a poor choice words, it conveys that one thing is more important than an other, depending on which level it may be found. Clearly, some people can never conceive of the two upper levels, and others, because of circumstance can never reach them either. Perhaps, a better title might be, "Development of Need."

Anyway, we have found ourselves at the, level of the development of human relationships. We recognize their importance, and yet we fail to develop the relationship of "mate." Why would that be? If we are decent looking, have the same chemistry as every other human, and we are horny, then what should prevent us from finding a suitable mate? I think it comes back to fear. It is our fear which throws up road blocks like defensiveness, it is our fear which worries about what our mom and dad might think, or our church friends, or the neighbours. As we grow older these fears become more deeply embedded and romantic relationships become almost impossible. We have rationalized our fear into a set of rules, criteria by which we will only allow romance to happen on such and such a ground. "If I am brusque at the beginning and she doesn't like me then so be it, that's who I am and so it is her problemo." In other words we are hardly sending out the signals that would grab us a life partner. (Please, I am not talking about anyone in particular, so don't get your shirts in a knot. I am just interested in the aspects of "the relationship") So what happens when level I & II were never really an issue for us? Should level III become our level one? Because we have never had to grapple with level I & II has our ability to cope with level III been compromised. I think so. We have not had to make choices of life or death and so the question of a mate becomes elusive; it becomes whim and fancy. How many of us would have chosen our present mate if we truly knew what is was to want for food, or if we lived in fear for our safety? How many of our mates would have chosen us? I think BFS has shown us that our lives lacked a certain depth of character, that we lacked honesty of mind, and consistency of soul.

I believe it all boils down to, do we, can we follow what must move us.

Cheers,
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Postby JodiD on December 15th, 2005, 10:47 pm

basso wrote:We have not had to make choices of life or death and so the question of a mate becomes elusive; it becomes whim and fancy.

I think you may be onto something here. When I consider the world my grandparents lived in I'm amazed that anyone ever got married at all. They had it rougher than we did, so they had levels I and II covered. And despite the fact that there weren't many eligible people to choose from, somehow they did manage to find someone to marry. (Of course, there may have been many who didn't, but they don't have posterity to tell the tale.)

They possibly had lower expectations, but more importantly, they didn't have the option of choice, and didn't know what they were missing because their circle of acquaintances was small. In our world, there are far too many choices, yet at the same time I think there is far less opportunity to choose. And once you get my age, they say you have a better chance of being killed by a terrorist than of getting married. :shock:

Jodi, who is wondering what has become of basso's avatar
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Postby basso on December 16th, 2005, 8:19 am

I'm wondering, perhaps arranged marriages might be something that could come into vogue.

I didn't think I had anything left to say on this issue but...I do. How would divorce and cheating on ones partner factor into all this? It would seem that for many, once you have taken care of level I & II, and level III is looking pretty good: it is time for further dalliance with the sex part of level I, and then perhaps another relationship in level III. In other words, I got my beer, my belly is full, time to party. :D Level IV might be given a go by some, and then back to level I and III again, just to get back to ones roots. Level V? uh no thanks, too much work, and anyway my belly is full. Level VI, VII, VIII, philosophy, art, transcendence? Fu** that...let's dance....on level I. :lol:

Ciao,
Basso

Oh and about the avatar; I am still debating between completely naked or wearing the satin frilly panties. Any suggestions?, I know what SuziQ thinks.
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Postby felicia on December 19th, 2005, 2:36 pm

hi all,
so I havent been frequenting this site lately, but I'm still twitching some days great others same old same old. This is the first post I read upon entering the forum. I have to say I groaned when I saw maslow's theory and it wasn't until basso's last post that I laughed. in college we studied this in what seemed like every class. I have to get into my notes because if I remember correctly only like 1% of the population becomes self actualized with the majority stuck on levels 1-3 (no wonder). so there you go basso!

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