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serotonine syndrome...Creatinin low - solution?

PostPosted: May 30th, 2015, 8:30 am
by German2
Hi there,

maybe I have a solution why my muscle tone gets even higher and higher (it was already high before).
See thread viewtopic.php?f=5&t=21611

My Serotonine is doubled to the highest normal value 554,2 (148-230)
I found under Serotonin Syndrome:
high muscle tension!!

It so so good that I spent privately on those labs...I know that they wanted to prescribe me a further Antidepressant. That would have been a catastrophy...

What makes me anxious is my Creatinin Value in the blood.
It is very low. 0,34 (0,6-1,8).
This is an indicator for a low muscle mass...Is it a marker for a neuromuscular process?? Who knows about it..??

Re: serotonine syndrome...Creatinin low - solution?

PostPosted: May 31st, 2015, 7:14 am
by Yuliasir
This is NOT a serotonine syndrome.

Serotonine in the blood serum is used for diagnositcis of triptofan metabolism, and 2 times increased serotonine fortunately does not indicate nothing serious but maybe some slight methabolic disorder related to B-group vitamine problems.

There is also a chance for so called dumping syndrome but this means you have to undergo bariatric surgery which you did not report.

Normaly 10 % of triptofan (amino acid) we recevie with food like cheese, milk, nuts, choclolate, fish etc,. is used for making serotonine. But in some conditions in the thyrpid or guts up to 60 % of triptofan to be metabolised and therefore those people demonstrate 5-10 higher serotonine increase. As this is not your case and you have only mild increase, you should not be bothered with idea of having those conditions. Slight increase in serotonine indicates also chronic hyperactivity of parasympatic nerve system which is rather expected for BFS people (as we all here have dysautonomias).

serotonine syndrome never happens per se, it is a specific condition related to drugs abuse, use of SSRI and IMAO together (which is alreasdy a known medical case and ususally, if you report to all doctors properly all drugs you are taking by medical prescription, this should not happen, cause serotonine syndrome could be potentially lethal), or if oyu are on antipsychotci drugs of IMAO class and eat cheese, salmon or some other food rich in triptofan after which extra serotonine goes to your brain. Some of our fellows (could not rememer who exactly) had reported serotonine syndrome due to improper prescription medicametns change, and it was really a disaster.

so, summarizing what I would like to say: this is not a serotonine syndrome as usually it could not last for months without getting really bad and possibly lethal, also doctros should be aware of incmpatible ani-psychotic medication when making your prescriptions; 2 times increase does not indicate usually any serious problems in thyroid or in GIT (one needs 5-10 times increase to be alerted about serious problems); most possible reason is B group metabolic disease or hyperactivation of parasympatic autonomic nerve system due to chronic fears.
I would suggest to ask your doctors about this anyway - if they ordered it, they must have some ideas to check for.

Re: serotonine syndrome...Creatinin low - solution?

PostPosted: May 31st, 2015, 9:20 am
by German2
Dear Yulasir,

thanks a lot for the detailed answer...Yes, you are right. A serotonine syndrome would be an acute situation. I remember when I was in hospital and got a wrong combination of medication and I drove mad and they had to keep me in hospital. I thought I would die..but my neuro told me it must have been a kind of dopamin reaction due to the combination.
Anyway, I thought a "too much" of serotonine would have caused my problems.

Yesterday I got Flupirtin to get better. It worked for my muscles, but I feel like I have left the commando bridge...awful.
I will show the neurotransmitter profile to the neuro on Monday. The doctor who ordered it, did not really comment on it, because he expected me to have all neurotransmitters much too high, but it was not. In fact, Adrenalin and Domapin were ok but Noradrenalin too low...Just Serotonin was too high, I think because auf too much p5p (b6).

What do you think of the low creatinin? Could this be an indicator of muscle loss? It is so that I am really have muscle wasting. I did not go to the gym for about 4 weeks and have now again problems with the strength of my legs. My muscles do not stay...

Re: serotonine syndrome...Creatinin low - solution?

PostPosted: June 1st, 2015, 2:40 am
by Strive
Generally speaking, I think a low creatinine just means you have above average kidney function. Shouldn't be too much to worry about. They use formulas to calculate a "normal" creatinine based on your age and gender, but a truly accurate reference value would also take into account your race and size, which most labs don't do and so based on those things you probably just have good kidneys relative to the labs basic reference value!

Re: serotonine syndrome...Creatinin low - solution?

PostPosted: June 1st, 2015, 8:10 am
by Yuliasir
Low CK does npt mean loss of muscle mass.
Loss of muscles due to rabdomyolisis (destruction of muscles) by watever reason is indicated by increased CK, not decreased. MND, infacrction, workout, etc all cause Ck rise. I have no idea what could mean low CK but definitely not muscle loss.

I did some search and it says that creatine kinase activity is determined by tyroxine (thyroid hormone) level. Considering the fact that slight increase in serotonine also suggests thyroid involvement, maybe both analyses indicate the fact you have Hashimoto disease. This is just speculation however.

Also I am not sure we both does not mess up creatinine and creatin kinase. Creatinine is an indicator of kidney function, while creatin kinase is an indicator of muscle damage.

Re: serotonine syndrome...Creatinin low - solution?

PostPosted: June 1st, 2015, 2:09 pm
by German2
...yes, I ment creatinine in fact. Sorry if I confused this..But it was measured in the urine and not in the blood. So maybe the outcome was not that valid anyway. The psycho doc in pain clinic (standard appointment) told me today, that neurostress hormones in the urine are not that valid, too. And due to my unclear status, he was not willing to give me any new medication. Every doctor referrs to my unclear status. Which I do understand, but it does not help me at all. If the doctors are really unsecure about what I do have, then why not me....

Re: serotonine syndrome...Creatinin low - solution?

PostPosted: June 1st, 2015, 2:32 pm
by Yuliasir
but still your doctors seems to be sure about you not having MND you fear about. They do not know exactly what causes your actual condition, but that's different (at least for me). They are not sure what is underlying condition so could not provide targeted treatment and have to treat symptomes with more or less success...

Re: serotonine syndrome...Creatinin low - solution?

PostPosted: June 4th, 2015, 1:59 pm
by German2
Yes, this is the way things are...doctors even have no clue, why training of my lower arm muscles for ex. cause me painful hardening of the mucles. This also happened to my right foot after foot massage. It went away after taking Bromelain for a while..They want me to do further training and take pain medication to procede. The Katalodon I just take at weekends because I cannot drive a car with this strong medication. And furthermore, twitching comes back with it. I don't like that at all because it almost completely stopped. Regarding my other condition - high muscle tone - not really a success but it gives me a bit of a comfort that I hardly don't twitch any more.
And with the strong medication I cannot do the training they want me to do in the pain clinic. So I restricted it. I have a tough programm of sports, electrotherapie, massage...
well, I experienced that my back which was like a hard cement wall, gets softer.

Re: serotonine syndrome...Creatinin low - solution?

PostPosted: June 6th, 2015, 1:42 pm
by German2
2 weeks in pain lower arms feel like raw flesh meanwhile for I have to use my ellbows and lower arms. I am not sure, if its good to swallow pain pills against this growing pain, but they want me to. I decided to stay the pain twitching up to now, despite electro therapy...