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Re: Spot on Thenar eminence? Freak out

PostPosted: May 25th, 2015, 7:50 am
by German2
And have you ever thought about Polineuropathy which is more realistic than MND - in case that there is something going on? As also Yuliasir pointed out...PNP is also accompanied by twitching.

Re: Spot on Thenar eminence? Freak out

PostPosted: May 25th, 2015, 9:15 am
by Xina535
When this translates, it's called ulnar compression syndrome. When I looked it up, it says it affects the pinky and ring finger (ulnar claw), I don't have any problems with those fingers, just a tingle here and there in my pinky. I don't have any elbow pain or forearm issues. My forearm doesn't even twitch. It's my upper arm/shoulder constant and thumb (sometimes).bo used to get pain in my thumb, but now I don't really have any pain.

In March, my hand surgeon gave me a referral to my neuro to check for an ulnar lesion, where he did a nerve conduction on my ulnar nerve, it was normal and he called me crazy (psychosomatic).

Re: Spot on Thenar eminence? Freak out

PostPosted: May 25th, 2015, 9:26 am
by German2
The ulnar nerve innervates parts of the thumb muscle. I do have it and even my neurosurgion told me that he will operate me if my thumb gets weak. ...and here is another source from the web which says that I am right..
In the end I cannot tell you if that is your problem. Due to NCV I have it just on my left side. But in fact I have the same problems on both sides almost to the same extend...

Re: Spot on Thenar eminence? Freak out

PostPosted: May 25th, 2015, 10:29 am
by Xina535
Is the web between your first finger and thumb smaller/deeper, and in the snuff box, is that sunken in more? I have grooves and dents on my thumb knuckle because the skin just sank down. Do you have numbness? I don't. Can you PM me with which neuro you saw who diagnosed your elbow/ulnar problem (or was it done in the hospital)? Do you get twitching in your hand and upper arm, but not forearm? Do you have any related pain?

I just want to go to the hospital and say "here, check me out." Is that possible? It is when it comes to your mental state... :cry: :cry:

Re: Spot on Thenar eminence? Freak out

PostPosted: May 25th, 2015, 10:48 am
by German2
Hi Xina,

I have a sunken area between thumb and first index finger, yes. On both sides to some extend, but left side more. At the beginning also the SUS left was questionnable. But nowadays the electrophysical outcome can be reproduced at every hospital/docctor. It was a question of time.
No, the snuff box is not sunken.
I have pain in the whole lower arms, my muscle has shortened, my muscle tone is high and I cannot use my ellbows because otherwise the pain drives me mad after the activity. Both lower arms go numb every night. Especially my pinky muscle hurt often and is clincally a bit weak (they estimate 4+ on a scale where 5 is optimum) But no other sensitive issues. These are more motoric issues. I feel my lower arms getting weaker in general...and I have quite often (but not always) a sore joint on the left side.
Twitching belongs to PNP....But no, I do not have any twitching nowadays, except my left foot, but even that slowed down. Therefore I have high muscle tone and have to take a muscle relaxing medication.

But last year I had really strange symptoms with my left thumb. It was moving and moving constantly. I had to hold it with my hand to interrupt. This is the crazy normal waxing and waning of most people here I guess...
In general the appearance of my hands and lower arms (as well es lower legs and feet) changed over the last 2,5 years...

Re: Spot on Thenar eminence? Freak out

PostPosted: May 25th, 2015, 10:50 am
by German2
..The most thorough investigation I got in university of Muenster. But I waited one year on the appt. (I know some get it faster because they are able to push things...). I should come back in a year for the follow up...

Re: Spot on Thenar eminence? Freak out

PostPosted: May 25th, 2015, 11:33 am
by Xina535
I have:
-Weak pinching grip (getting worse)
-Sunken in snuff box/grooves in thumb knuckle (more sunken in than it normally is)
-Some crawling sensations in my palm thumb Thenar, around my knuckle and on the inside of my index finger (feels like a tiny TENS unit is on there or ants crawling)
-Occasionally, a twitch in both the palm side thumb Thenar and in the web between index finger and thumb
-More, nonstop twitching in my arms and shoulders (the spots change, few here, then few there)
-clean NCV on my ulnar nerve in March

I do not have:
-Any forearm or elbow issues
-pain, except when pressing my thumb Thenar against something (like when doing a push up)

This seems to be different from your ulnar compression, right?

I looked at a picture that the radial nerve covers the thumb and index finger on the back of the hand. And a little of the thumb on the side and a little into the Palm thumb Thenar. And ulnar is more the ring and pinky fingers. But I could be confused...

Re: Spot on Thenar eminence? Freak out

PostPosted: May 25th, 2015, 12:25 pm
by German2
All I can say is, that my ulnar nerve syndrom(s) developed over the time. Now they got worse on both sides and officially there is just one measurable...I had also twitching in those areas former times...The problem with all those things is, that neuros say, sometimes it takes time to develop the full presentation..and we do not have the patience to sit and wait...

Re: Spot on Thenar eminence? Freak out

PostPosted: May 25th, 2015, 12:55 pm
by Xina535
Ok, that was another question I wanted to ask.... This thing with my thumb started a year ago, tiny changes over the last year, always progressing. So I am a little reassured if atrophy due to nerve compression takes a long time to develop (if one year is a long time??)

Re: Spot on Thenar eminence? Freak out

PostPosted: May 26th, 2015, 11:27 am
by leaflea
Have either of you been checked for a connective tissue disease such as scleroderma or ehlers-danlos? Symptoms in both overlap but one is auto-immune, the other more genetic. Xina, I know you have elevated ANA. German, you know I also have the thinning hands and calves and feet. They are also cold all the time, but not discolored. I am on a CREST (limited scleroderma) facebook page and submitted the question if people twitch and within hours had over a dozen responses. They twitch to the extent they have had EMG or feel as though they are plugged in. Sounds all too familiar.

Re: Spot on Thenar eminence? Freak out

PostPosted: May 26th, 2015, 2:01 pm
by German2
Hi leflea,Very good idea!! But, yes I have been checked for both..scleroderma and Ehlers-Danlos. First one was negative, CREST I don't know if it was tested. EDS one is still on my list. From clinical point of view it was quite clear...But Genetic testing was not totally clear. I have a skin biopsy in June to give the final answer...EDS is also a progressive desease but not life terminating unless your vessels are involved to a certain extend...CREST is also managable..if this would be the case.

Re: Spot on Thenar eminence? Freak out

PostPosted: May 27th, 2015, 5:43 am
by Xina535
Hi Leaflea, no I have not. Because all doctors think I am psychosomatic, they don't feel it is necessary to check. I am really at a point where I don't know where to go next, who to trust, or what to do! This is why I had to go to the psycho hospital recently, deep deep depression. I am hoping they can help me with my direction.

I did look up the scleroderma and CREST, but I do not have any skin problems. (besides that one spot that appeared one night then left the next day)

Something twilight zone to share:

So I have been so frustrated with my thumb and index finger being weak and feeling it shake and be unstable, and this sinking in going on. I put the TENS unit on there and my right side needed more power to move like my left side. Well, since then, I have been doing the rubber band exercises, and low and behold, yesterday and today, the muscle between the thumb and index finger is FAT and HARD like a rock, harder than my husband's. It bulked up and since then, I feel less of the weakness and instability. However, the sunken in areas are still there, so I am wondering about that. Like maybe just whatever muscle is left got bulky and whatever is left did not. ?? I am also wondering if this is an indication of compression - like if something is compressed, could it strengthen the muscle?

Re: Spot on Thenar eminence? Freak out

PostPosted: June 8th, 2015, 6:58 am
by Xina535
Update here - since the slight improvement, things went back to as they were, weak, unstable, shrunken.

Major important questions/reality check so I don't lose it:

Pinched nerve vs. MND:

I have read everywhere that "if no sensory loss" means MND. What does "no sensory loss" mean? Numbness? Only numbness?

My thumb/finger are never numb, but I do have sensory issues like pulsating (feels like a strong blood flow or current through the thumb), pins at the tip of my thumb, lots of stuff like that. Is that possible in MND? I can't help thinking that these "sensory" feelings I have are like me feeling my muscle wasting (can you FEEL a muscle waste)?


My right thumb palm side thenar (dominant) is clearly smaller in bulk than my left. From previous pictures, it used to be fatter than my left. But my right hand does not have any dents or loose/extra skin. Can you have atrophy without the dents and extra/loose skin?

Froment/Jeanne's Sign:

I clearly have this. My MCP joint knicks inward and the other/upper joint of my thumb knicks outward when it is under pressure, and the left thumb does not. My left thumb can push against pressure keeping the MCP joint bent outward and the thumb right thumb bends at both joints. Does anyone know if this is an indication more likely in pinched nerve or can also happen in MND?

I check into the hospital this week, as soon as they have a bed available. It is a psychological clinic, but he said they will do neurology and other tests, so I hope they do and he did just not tell me that. Until then, these thoughts/questions have been keeping me awake and I would greatly appreciate any knowledge sharing.

Re: Spot on Thenar eminence? Freak out

PostPosted: June 8th, 2015, 10:11 am
by misterjuanperalta
Froment sign is associated with Ulnar nerve issues at C8-T1, if no other issues in arm or wrist.

Re: Spot on Thenar eminence? Freak out

PostPosted: June 8th, 2015, 10:30 am
by Xina535
misterjuanperalta wrote:nerve issues at C8-T1

Including motor nerve death due to MND?