Seeking opinions on if this is atrophy in my hand

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Seeking opinions on if this is atrophy in my hand

Postby Xina535 on June 11th, 2014, 5:19 pm

Ok, I know I had an EMG of my left arm and left calf and the doc ruled out ALS in his report to my orthopedic doc. I have been relieved.....really shocked still that a year of intense fear boiled down to just a 5 minute test....but I have been relieved. Especially since this EMG was done in my 11th month of twitching.

However, I had been having some symptoms with my right hand (opposite limb where the EMG was performed), and although I was told that no matter where ALS is in your body, if you have it, an EMG will pick it up no matter where it is placed, I am still uneasy about my right hand. Sometimes I am really OK about it, sometimes I freak out about it.

What's freaking me out? I have twitching and pain in my thenar, and what seems to be tingling in my first dorsal inceroussous (spelling?) muscle...which I can't really tell if it is a tingle or a tiny twitch I just can't see. Also, I have some dexterity issues. Eating lunch today, my hand was trembling as I was holding my fork. Trembling due to?? Anxiety, OCDing, or due to weakness setting in?

What I really cannot get over though, is this dent that I have on my right hand. I am not sure if it was always there. I took pics of my hands a few weeks ago and it was there, but I honestly do not think I had this dent until recently, but I can't be sure.

I've examined my husbands hands, I've had my friends send me pics of their hands to see if they have this cave in part, and some do have it, but not like how I have it. I decided to post pics and post them here to see what you think, especially asking those who know about dents and atrophy. I will not Google this.

I have a follow-up neuro appt on the 23rd to let him know the pain I have is still there, it comes and goes, but because it's not going away totally, and I've been getting some pains also in my arms (real, quick sharp pains), he told me to come back if this happens.

By the way, I have come to really be grossed out by my hands, the veins, the grooves...I guess I am just too sick of looking at them.



Right hand, relaxed

http://roxythegray.wordpress.com/?attachment_id=308


Right hand, thumb slightly Extended outward - here you can see how the webby muscle (first dorsal...) kind of starts to sink in

http://roxythegray.wordpress.com/?attachment_id=309


Right hand, flexing the webby muscle -it's this dent that is driving me crazy! When I stop flexing, and my hand is relaxed, I can see the spot of skin where that dent was when it was flexed, and the skin very slighly droops inward. I mean very very very slightly. Maybe it's normal, but I'm OCDing and can't help but notice it.

http://roxythegray.wordpress.com/?attachment_id=310

http://roxythegray.wordpress.com/?attachment_id=311


Just as reference, here is my left hand. I am right-handed. The dent is not there, or isn't as present. Could it be, that because I am right handed, that the muscle is just more bulky/more built than my in my left hand, and when I flex, the musle comes out more, therefore, making more of a dent? (if that makes sense to anyone).

http://roxythegray.wordpress.com/?attachment_id=306

http://roxythegray.wordpress.com/?attachment_id=307


I do not have any real problems with gripping, opening things, typing....but I do get a weird feeling when holding a fork or my toothbrush. I can't really describe it. It's not a sensation or a pain. It twitches, and I still twitch body-wide as usual.

I wonder often, if I had that size of dent, would I even be able to flex the muscle, wouldn't I have really noticible function disturbance with that size dent? But I have no idea! If it is atrophy but ALS is ruled out, I wonder 'Is ALS really ruled out?' and 'What else could this be?' - but maybe I am freaking out over something that is totally normal!?

PS - I was not sure how else I can get the pics posted, so I used an old wordpress blog I had years ago for my dog who was sick at the time. I used it to track her progress and keep my family updated in one spot.
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Re: Seeking opinions on if this is atrophy in my hand

Postby Yuliasir on June 11th, 2014, 9:27 pm

Xina,
I moved both my thumbs outward, and I have the same 'dents' etc. If I will crook my fingers in a way you do on the second series, I am getting the same picture. Should I tell you I do not have any atrophy in my hands?
You do not have it too.

People with hand attrophy should not take weird positions and crook the fingers like they are black magicians going to cast a fireball. The only one simple test for hand muscle atrophy is to put all your fingers including the tnumb together in one plane. If you have a good noticeable buldge of tissue between the thumb and index on the top side of palm - no atrophy.

by the way your hands are more fleshy than mine
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Re: Seeking opinions on if this is atrophy in my hand

Postby leaflea on June 12th, 2014, 12:10 am

As Yuliasir has said and I've noted by combing the board - loss of subcutaneous fat is common with us! In hands and feet. There is NO DOUBT that the appearance of my hands and feet have changed since this all started. See German2's posts also. No idea why - but it is part of this syndrome. Fools us into thinking it is atrophy. But its not. I find my hands and feet repulsive also - all bones, veins and tendons covered in skin. Can see everything. But NO weakness, right?
Matthew 6:27 Who of you by worrying can add a single hour to his life?
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Re: Seeking opinions on if this is atrophy in my hand

Postby Xina535 on June 14th, 2014, 1:34 pm

thanks for checking and advising about your Hands. I have been able to get past obsessing about the dent.....at least for now :roll:

the black magician comment made me LOL!! :)

However, I do feel weakness. I was eating an ice cream today and it was hard to hold in my right Hand, so I changed Hands. My hand was trembling while holding my fork the other day.

Also, this is kind of freaking me out: I started getting a constant tingle in my thenar, non stop, and it has a pattern....like "buzzz" waits 2 secons "buzzz", almost like the tingling has a pulse....and you know what it feels like!? Like I have a TENS unit on my thenar muscle. Exactly like that!

Should I be concerned about this constant TENS shock buzz tingling feeling? Whether for ALS or for something else that could be serious? I have muscle cream and wrapped it up to see if it will help at all. I have a neuro appt on the 23rd, but should I wait that long?
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Re: Seeking opinions on if this is atrophy in my hand

Postby banid on June 14th, 2014, 3:28 pm

don't be worried,i thought that i have atrophy,in the right leg then right side of my ribcage,then left leg and left side of my ribcage,i have bad feelings in my legs,in my right hand and with breathing,but all my four emgs were normal,so the docs told me that if they were atrophy and they were because of nerves dying they were absoloutly shown on emg,but when after 18months of feeling tight and weak with my right leg(not clinical weakness) my atrophy has not proggressed and nothing is shown on emg so what should they be? the doctor told subcotaneous atrophy!
I am not sure that i don't have als but i just wanted to mention that something called subcotaneous fat atrophy should be on the list when there is a change in the size and shape of the muscle but there is no weakness or sth shown on emg
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Re: Seeking opinions on if this is atrophy in my hand

Postby Xina535 on June 14th, 2014, 3:47 pm

thanks! I hadn't heard about that kind of atrophy before!

I am worried about this constant TENS electric pulse feeling in my thenar and the weakness. Note - I do twitch in this hand/thenar and on the other side in the webby part where I have that dent.

Does anyone know if this is serious, that should be seen before 23 June? And, if I have this electric pulse feeling, if that is from a nerve compression issue, would that cause twitching to happen?

TENS pulsing feeling, weakness with occasional twitches.....this combo is making me fall into panic again :( :cry:

I was doing soooo good! Had lots of good, light exercise, sleep and productive relaxation hypnosis sessions....but now relying on meds to calm down.
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Re: Seeking opinions on if this is atrophy in my hand

Postby leaflea on June 14th, 2014, 4:59 pm

Xina, if this is the worst case scenario nothing will change if you cannot be seen by a neuro until December 23! There is no hurry, you need to learn to be okay NO MATTER what. Whether you have a dreadful disease (highly unlikely) or not. I get the thenar buzzing like you and also the fleshy part twitching between pointer and thumb on the top side. Very common... do a search on it here. Freaky, but not at all unusual. Remember, all of this is freaky. BFS moves, changes, migrates...expect the unexpected so you won't be surprised when it happens. My latest thing is a numb and slightly swollen cheek - not in the sinus area. I'm quite sure it is bfs related. What next? Remember, we live in a haunted house.
Matthew 6:27 Who of you by worrying can add a single hour to his life?
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Re: Seeking opinions on if this is atrophy in my hand

Postby Xina535 on June 14th, 2014, 6:06 pm

I didn't mean to say December 23...the appt is June 23.

Hoping I get some improvement soon. Have to hold my other hand under my right hand on this phone to hold the phone. When I hold it alone with my right, it shakes/trembles and I struggle to keep it stable :( this is a very new ghost!
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Re: Seeking opinions on if this is atrophy in my hand

Postby Yuliasir on June 14th, 2014, 11:24 pm

Xina,
shakiness also happens in BFS. My hands sometimes shake when I hold the fork or cup. It is not what people with clinical weakness report. They usually report astonishing inability to use obviously healthy and normal limb. They usually say like you try, you have intent to do an action - but you fail because therer is no response on the muscle side. yu seem to have just a flareup of our tremors and muscle pains. I am used to have them too, sometimes my fingerss tremble even when I try to make a rong with the two fingers. This comes and goes. And tension and fear just increase it.
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Re: Seeking opinions on if this is atrophy in my hand

Postby Yuliasir on June 14th, 2014, 11:28 pm

by the way, if the ice cream was in the wafer cone and you were holding it, you may experience what is called cold induced weakness. It happens to hypermobile people (can not remember whehter you are, but many of us are). It is really so - some of hypermobile people can not hold cold items as much efficent as ambient ones.
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Re: Seeking opinions on if this is atrophy in my hand

Postby readytocheckout on June 15th, 2014, 3:59 am

Hi Xina

I sent you a PM but it said the user doesn't so not sure if you received it. I have similar hand problems, my hands are smaller than they used to be and I've lost bulk in the same area as you, around the first interosseous muscle I think it's called. My GP says it's loss of fat and the neuro didn't look twice at it. My recent NCV tests and EMG of my arms was also fine and I've had this hand issue going on for a long time, even before I had my first EMG last August. Let me tell you, the self checking is doing my head in! I'm sure I'm seeing things that aren't there. I can send you a pic of my hands if you want, but they're my hands not yours so of course they'd be different, but you'll see that part that I've been worried about and there's nothing wrong with it according the the docs & neuro.

I should also say that your hands look heaps better that mine, much more bulk.

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Re: Seeking opinions on if this is atrophy in my hand

Postby leaflea on June 15th, 2014, 2:56 pm

Xina - your hands are normal. They may have changed, as mine have with bfs, but they are not als hands by any stretch. Mine are hideous, I really am repulsed by my own hands since this started.

I did mean to say December 23rd. I know you meant June 23rd. My point is, it would not make any difference if you have your appointment today or in six months. als is not a disease where there is much benefit to "catching it early" like with cancer. My point is you need to learn to be okay with the uncertainty. Imagine your worst case scenario. Really focus on it. I know you are seeing a therapist. Has your therapist talked with you about the dertimental effect of reassurance seeking by going to the doctor? Running to the doctor makes our anxiety worse. It provides short lasting relief and sends us back again to get more sooner. In many ways it is very much like an addiction. I can't say my therapist has been super, super helpful...but perhaps the best thing he does for me is he keeps me from going to the doctor and from googling any symptoms. He holds me accountable to it. Without him, I am sure I'd have been back to the neuro at least four times since January. The other thing is delaying worry...nothing is gained by having this worry running around in our heads 24 hours a day. Instead, be present with what you are doing and get busy. Distract yourself. If you have a worry thought jot it down and then later devote 20 minutes to focusing on it without any distraction. Allow yourself to worry and imagine the worst case scenario. Also do a bit of problem solving during that time...then move on with your day until the same time and place the next day. It does help. Hard to do at first, but it gets easier.
Matthew 6:27 Who of you by worrying can add a single hour to his life?
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Re: Seeking opinions on if this is atrophy in my hand

Postby Xina535 on June 16th, 2014, 8:09 am

Hi Yuliasir, I am not a hypermobile person, at least I don't think I am. Thanks for letting me know that you experience this shakiness also!

Hi Garry, I did not receive a PM...strange, I will check again and if not, I will try to send you one, maybe you can reply to that. I would like to see your hands if you have a pic available.

Hi Leaflea, a couple things: I stopped seeing that therapist. He just kept making me go to ALS websites, write down how I am feeling when I panic, on pages of paper, and never reviewed it with me. No progress, I didn't feel like he helped me at all. He did explain to me that it will only hurt and not help if I keep going to the doctor. I had a few responses to that: My ortho wanted to see me. I had to have a MRI of my lower back because of a possible nerve compression, so I went there to get the results read. I did not go to my ortho otherwise. My ortho wanted me to see a certain neurologist as a second opinion, when he saw that I twitch. That is the time I went to the new neuro and he gave me my first EMG. My new neuro told me that if the pain in my right hand didn't get better, to come back. It's been a month now and symptoms are getting worse. That is why I am going back. I am actually scared to go to these doctors and do not want to go. I have been getting relaxation hypnosis instead, it helps me much better than filling out forms. I have stopped googling. I have learned to focus thoughts back on the present when going loopy. Some things/habits have improved for sure.

Also, I woke up this weekend every morning with a red area in the middle of my wrist on the palm side and my thenar muscle hurt like hell! The TENS feeling was strong on Saturday but hardly present yesterday. As I am typing, my right wrist hurts, like a stabbing. My husband and I think there is something....not sure what...maybe carpal tunnel, or beginning, but redness, pain, dexterity issues...I do believe this should be evaluated, BFS or not. I can't let it get worse otherwise my work will be in jeopardy.

Overall, thanks for pointing out how fat my hands are, hahaha! Yuliasir mentioned 'fleshy' and Garry mentioned 'more bulk', yea yea yea, I get the idea! ;) (just kidding)
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Re: Seeking opinions on if this is atrophy in my hand

Postby nrwtwitcher on June 16th, 2014, 12:23 pm

Hi Xina, I know how you feel, I have pain and a weak feeling im my left wrist, also by typing for example, and in my fingers. I have also pain in my fingers by using them. I am also scared there is something going on, because it gets worse over the last few weeks. Beside that I have nonstop fasciculations in both feet, calves and my left upper arm and sometimes all over my body. I am so tired from this strange symptoms.
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Re: Seeking opinions on if this is atrophy in my hand

Postby readytocheckout on June 16th, 2014, 8:31 pm

Xina535 wrote:I did not receive a PM...strange, I will check again and if not, I will try to send you one, maybe you can reply to that.


I didn't get your PM but I was able to send you one, hope this helps.
Garry


Edit: I just checked my PMs (outbox & sent) and my PM to you isn't there. If you didn't receive it you can email me via this website if you want to.
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Re: Seeking opinions on if this is atrophy in my hand

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