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Re: The Role of Systemic Inflammation in Disease

PostPosted: February 3rd, 2015, 5:10 am
by Buzznerd123

Re: The Role of Systemic Inflammation in Disease

PostPosted: February 3rd, 2015, 8:36 pm
by SecretAgentMan
Buzznerd123 wrote:just because some plane crashes it doesn't mean we should start using magic carpets.

It's one thing to disagree with someone's point of view, but the mocking isn't helping. I am trying to be respectful here, and I don't think it is so much to ask for a little respect in return. Telling me that I "seem to be sold on woo" could just as easily be said "I don't see things that way. Would you mind explaining why you think that and including some references?" Everybody on this earth believes what they believe for a reason. Everyone thinks their belief is justified for a reason. Perspectives can be distorted by our biases and previous experiences. And nobody has all the answers. I am wrong about things. You are wrong about things. We are all wrong about many things. To automatically jump to the conclusion that somebody is crazy just because you don't understand where they are coming from or agree with them is really counterproductive.

If you want to understand why I advocate that meditation can be a contributing factor towards curing disease, here is an article on a University of Wisconsin-Madison study that showed how mindfulness meditation helped reduce chronic inflammatory conditions:

As BFSBurger said, inflammation is an important part of the process. Prolonged inflammation can actually prevent healing and induce more symptoms. To reduce inflammation in chronic conditions is necessary for healing or curing to take place.

In the article they specifically state that it is not a magic bullet or a "cure all", which is fine and I agree. The inflammation comes from somewhere and that needs to be addressed too. I do not attribute my overcoming BFS with any particular one thing. It was a mutli-faceted approach. But like the legs of a stool, if you take one away, the stability of the whole is decreased. Even though meditation was not my magic bullet, it was an important leg of the stool for the whole of my recovery.

Here is another study published in the Journal of Psychoneuroendocrinology that determined meditation actually changed the expression of genes in meditators after only a day of exercises compared to controls:

From the results section of the study: "we detected reduced expression of histone deacetylase genes (HDAC 2, 3 and 9), alterations in global modification of histones (H4ac; H3K4me3) and decreased expression of pro-inflammatory genes (RIPK2 and COX2) in meditators compared with controls."

When you say that meditation is not alternative, I suppose I can agree with that statement. But what is alternative? Meditation can be supplemental or complimentary to any other healthcare practice. For example you could be doing other treatments and the meditation would just be complementary. Would you consider acupuncture alternative? Acupuncture can be complementary as well, as can any of the energy healing techniques. I like the word complimentary better actually.

Chi is a funny thing. Our best scientific instruments and equipment cannot detect it, measure it, or quantify it. In this video ( some scientists and National Geographic attempt to observe and test a Qi Gong Shaolin Warrior with two martial arts demonstrations where they try to understand how it is possible for him to do the things he is doing. One of the scientists in the video specifically says "As a scientist, I can't measure Chi. It's something that's not measurable. It's something that I cannot quantify." We can measure and observe the influence it has on the physical world, but we cannot directly measure or observe it. This is why science has such a hard time with Chi, but it does not mean that it is not real. Supposedly we all have it and therefore anyone can have an experience with it. This is where my gradual buy-in began, with first hand personal experience.

I was struggling and suffering through BFS just like you are, BFSBurger was, and many others are. My doctors were not giving me answers. I did not go to see 20 doctors though. I didn't need that many to figure out that they were not helping me. I suppose I tried the alternative (or perhaps I should say complementary) medicine docs out because I had a family member urging me to based on their positive results. I was a skeptic but not above giving it a shot. It wasn't hope or dreamy beliefs that made me feel better though. Especially early on, I was kicking and screaming. I would have to say the biggest eye opener for me was how quickly my symptoms reduced just because I started avoiding a few trigger foods they recommended I avoid, gluten, dairy, and soy.

I'm not expecting you to read this and suddenly be a believer. I'm pretty sure I've never read a forum post that turned my beliefs around. I have been intrigued by perspectives enough to humor them though. I at least hope you walk away understanding that science is making progress in these areas and although you may not agree it does not mean this is all hocus pocus. Is not the purpose of science to strive for understanding? Please let us not carry on with the woo and magic carpet talk. If something works, it works for a reason. Just because you can't observe and measure Chi does not mean that you can't have your own experiences and test it yourself. Test the hell out of these things. I did. Like I said, I am an engineer and I am one of those people who just has to know how things work. This is why I seek experiences where they are available and it is safe to do so. Yes, this journey has taken me down the rabbit hole in some respects, but every step of the way I evaluate new information to see if it fits in context with anything else I've learned. If not I don't just chuck it aside and mock the person who gave it too me though. I just move on. I can't tell you how many times I've had to come back to something that used to not make sense only to find out that it makes sense later because I have more information.

Re: The Role of Systemic Inflammation in Disease

PostPosted: February 4th, 2015, 4:44 am
by Buzznerd123

Re: The Role of Systemic Inflammation in Disease

PostPosted: February 4th, 2015, 6:38 pm
by SecretAgentMan
I did not mean to leave an impression that I assumed you don't keep up with research. In fact, I can tell you value research. There is just so much research out there that there is no way we can be aware of it all. I wanted the opportunity to have a discussion so that I could help raise your awareness to some of the research and science that supports that which you were arguing against. It was not my intent to imply that you don't follow research at all.

Regarding the word cure, you are right that it is a strong word. I do not use it lightly. This is why I make no promises in telling my story to others here. If someone were to replicate exactly what I did they may not have the same results I did. This is because we are all different and have different factors at play. The care of a knowledgeable and experienced doctor is required to fully understand each individual so they know what treatments, regiments, and whatever else is required for that particular individual. I do use that word though because I (and a few select others) have achieved it and therefore more people here can as well. In particular, if inflammation is a high contributing trigger for your BFS symptoms I do believe that curing is possible. Basically you need to find the right tools for the right job to find the sources of the inflammation and eliminate them while making lifestyle changes to increase resiliency against inflammation (like meditation). Each contributing action you take removes more and more of what is standing in the way of your body's own natural ability to heal. Eventually if you do enough of the right things normalcy and balance will be restored with no more symptoms (cure status). This is where I am now and have been for years.

While I can personally attest to the amazing success of allergy elimination techniques such as NAET, despite high skepticism at the time of my first trying it, I do have a research paper that was published in 2011 and backs up the success of the treatment. In this particular study they specifically looked at 6 people with peanut allergies and treated them with NAET. After the treatment 4 of the 6 people had completely eliminated their reactions to peanuts. The other 2 had greatly reduced symptoms. The paper can be found here:

There is a particular excerpt from the discussion section I want to highlight because it mirrors my experience.
The mechanism of action of NAET treatments as it relates to immunological activity is not fully understood at this
point. Although it may be thought that the treatment mechanism is due to a placebo effect, this is an illogical
argument. For a placebo effect to be effective one must believe that treatments or medications are genuinely
authentic and beneficial. Some participants have known for several years that peanuts are hazardous to their health
and potentially fatal. During the peanut challenge, these fears often overwhelmed confidence in the NAET
treatments. Fear of potential consequences was manifest in many of the participants through anxiety, apprehension,
and nervousness. With such emotions present, the placebo effect cannot be successful.

I pondered long and hard over this as well because I was so skeptical when I was first being exposed to NAET. I truly was questioning why I was even bothering. My results despite these strong doubts had me wondering how Placebo could even be a factor. Knowing what I know now about this elusive subtle energy system of the body and how it influences our health, it makes much more sense to me. It was not an easy journey though specifically because, as you said, there was no biological plausibility given the information I had at the time. NAET incorporates the aspect of the energetic though, which is the missing ingredient to make things like this possible.

I only had time to read the abstract on this particular study, but it was done on children with allergy related autism with positive results. In this study 56 children with autism were evaluated (26 control, 30 treated with NAET). Paper: ... lished.pdf

The study says:
After 1 year, the children receiving NAET treatments demonstrated significant improvements in performance compared with the control group.
In the NAET group, 23 of the 30 children returned to regular school classes with healthy, nonautistic peers after treatment, but all of the children in the control group continued to require special education.
Conclusions: The NAET treatment is effective and well tolerated for children with allergy-related autism.

I have friends and family that have since gone to benefit from treatments like NAET after becoming aware of it. I hope this helps answer your question.

Re: The Role of Systemic Inflammation in Disease

PostPosted: February 4th, 2015, 7:05 pm
by BFSBurger
Buzznerd123 wrote:@ Burger i tried for 5-6 months before giving up... it is very disruptive ... keep perfect form ... adherence to such guidelines ... results didn't show up i crashed and burned


What did you do exactly? It doesn't sound like anything I was doing. :? The whole point of my regimen was the very opposite of anything that would result in crashing and burning, giving up, or feeling disruptive. Sure, there were "new things" to do on a daily basis. But the whole regimen was centered around more rest. More calm. And less stress. It sounds to me like even trying to do this caused you stress. That tells me something was different about what you were doing. Or maybe just your mindset while doing it. No element of this added any difficulty to my life.

I will say this hopefully without sounding like a jerk: I don't believe anyone here has done my regimen. Not a single person. And I would include you. Not because I think anyone is lying. But because I know what my regimen entailed. And it was so intricate and deliberate, that were I not afraid I was about to evolve to a "disease state" of some form, I wouldn't have had the motivation to bother. But I had that fear. And it made doing all these things ... somewhat enjoyable. But there were so many elements to it that I doubt anyone has duplicated it. And honestly: It could have been 1, 2, 3 elements buried somewhere in that regimen that made all the difference. The game changer could've been anything. I was throwing the kitchen sink of good body, good mind at myself. I actually think about that often. Someone could do X, X, X, X, and X ... and say "this doesnt work". But I know im doing X, X, X, X, xa, xb, xc, X, X, X, X, X, xd, xe, xf, X, X, X, .... and on and on. I did everything I knew to do, based on all I had learned. I was listening to Chris Kresser's podcast every morning while making a breakfast focused entirely on reducing inflammation and gut health.

But it was fun. There was no burden about it at all. I just began putting into practice everything I knew about inflammation reduction, stress reduction, and rest. Granted, it was down to minutia. Things like a tablespoon of coconut oil daily, flax oil, olive oil. Blueberries, tart cherry juice. A handful of supplements I felt would help the most. The act of not allowing any "twinge" of anger. Any twinge of irritation. Any twinge of worry to occur inside of me. At any point of the day. The concerted effort to breath deeply when on the treadmill, and exhale as fully as possible. To oxygenate the brain. A very specific type of exercising, with a very specific approach to resting periods in between. Repeating iterations with evolving intensity. Baths. Melatonin. Yes, even inhaling lavendar. Every bit of medical advice and tips I'd learned for calming an electrically inflamed system - I did.

Despite all that, it didn't feel like I was burdening myself. Instead of cookies, weekend drunkenness, excessive exercise that caused painful joints, and unbridled anger / frustration / irritation / health fears ... I simply replaced those things with their opposites. It just became "what I do now instead of all that unhealthy nonsense". But because of its minutia - and each minutia having a specific meaning and purpose - I dont think anyone has done what I have done. So I tend to get defensive when people say "I tried that and it didnt work". I dont think anyone here has tried what I have done. At least not all the elements of it that were necessary for me to see results.

Anyways - can you clarify what you mean? Terms like adherence to guidelines, disruptive, keeping perfect form, already messed up lifestyle, crash and burn ..... just sound like the completely different mentality and approach was involved. If anything I had created a world of absolute calm, with amazing nutrition, and total peace of mind.

Most importantly? The part where you say you gave up. To be quite honest - nobody in their right mind would just give up on what I was doing and go back to pizza, cookies, killing it at the gym, bombarding themself with stress, and a sh*tty lifestyle. So even the fact that you "gave up" on it is strange to me. What did you give up on? Taking care of yourself and resting more? Worrying less? Went back to an abusive mindset and bad food?


Re: The Role of Systemic Inflammation in Disease

PostPosted: February 5th, 2015, 6:02 am
by Buzznerd123

Re: The Role of Systemic Inflammation in Disease

PostPosted: February 8th, 2015, 6:43 pm
by leaflea
Buzznerd or Little Lost,

Could either of you say a few words about Cytokines and the role they play in neural hyperexcitability? I am considering trying Cymbalta and sure don't want to throw fuel onto this fire. I wonder if Cymbalta would help or hurt my situation. Thanks in advance.

COPIED FROM WIKIPEDIA ON CYMBALTA - only other time I've seen the word "Cytokines" besides this week on this site

Pharmacology Mechanism of Action

Duloxetine (Cymbalta) inhibits the reuptake of serotonin and norepinephrine (NE) in the central nervous system. Duloxetine increases dopamine (DA) specifically in the prefrontal cortex where there are few DA reuptake pumps via the inhibition of NE reuptake pumps (NET) thus allowing greater diffusion of DA in this brain region. However, duloxetine has no significant affinity for dopaminergic, cholinergic, histaminergic, opioid, glutamate, and GABA reuptake transporters and can therefore be considered to be a selective reuptake inhibitor at the 5-HT and NA transporters. Duloxetine undergoes extensive metabolism, but the major circulating metabolites do not contribute significantly to the pharmacologic activity.

Major depressive disorder is believed to be due in part to an increase in pro-inflammatory cytokines within the central nervous system. Antidepressants including ones with a similar mechanism of action as duloxetine, i.e. serotonin metabolism inhibition, cause a decrease in proinflammatory cytokine activity and an increase in anti-inflammatory cytokines; this mechanism may apply to duloxetine in its effect on depression but research on cytokines specific to duloxetine therapy is lacking.

The analgesic properties of duloxetine in the treatment of diabetic neuropathy and central pain syndromes such as fibromyalgia are believed to be due to sodium ion channel blockade.

Re: The Role of Systemic Inflammation in Disease

PostPosted: February 9th, 2015, 4:30 am
by Buzznerd123

Re: The Role of Systemic Inflammation in Disease

PostPosted: February 9th, 2015, 5:05 am
by Yuliasir
by the way there was a mention here about a few month ago regarding the fact that our condition might be linked to microglia inflammation (at least in terms of rapid onset of extreme anxiety and pain without local inlfammation in the muscles/neves) - and it seems to me that we account at least one case when our fellow was 100 % cured not only from titching, extreme perceived weakness etc but also from mood and mental efects after weekly IV immunosupperssive shots prescribed due to suspected MS :) MS was not confirmed but complete cure was reported :)
But I must admit this was a strong specific immune system suppressing treatment, really strong one, and not a mild exclusion diet etc. I do not hink everybody would be assigned easily for a course of immunosuppressors just becasue of bad mood or even depression.