There's room enough for all of us

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Re: There's room enough for all of us

Postby SecretAgentMan on July 24th, 2013, 1:37 pm

johnnythejet wrote:I respectfully disagree....completely. Not everyone believes what they believe b/c its been validated via personal experiences. I believe many things to be *true*, and those beliefs are based on anything BUT my own experience. They are based on facts and logical deduction.

What G-dog is saying is that we're all entitled to choose beliefs based on personal choice, but we're also free to challenge others' beliefs as well. I think there is a level of respect that should be maintained, but you, G-dog, and anyone else is entitled to claim any of my beliefs are false, short-sighted, weak, etc. Some may view these challenges as "negative", but they are valid opinions and hold no malicious intent. However, we cross the line when we disrespect others via personal insults.


Valid points Johnny. I actually roll up our interpretations of 'facts' and 'logical deduction' into our perspective though because as you have seen people present facts all day long that support their interpretation of things. If it is one thing history teaches us it is that we are constantly revising our understanding of how things work. Things treated as 'facts' today can be questioned and turned on their heads tomorrow. My logical deduction and reasoning may not yeild the same results that your logical deducton and reasoning and both can be following a logical process, just rooted in different perspectives.

I agree with you 100% on being respectful of others beliefs even if you disagree. Having an open mind does not mean you have to agree with everything. It simply means you acknowledge that there is a possibility that what you disagree with is true. This is why I always do my best to avoid absolute statements, tell someone they are wrong, or lable things. Not only does it allow you to not have to eat crow someday, but it allows you to open up to new possiblilities you may have otherwise discounted or written off without ever having given them a chance.

This is actually turning out to be a really good discussion! :D
If your mind is your own worst enemy, why not make friends with it and turn it into your greatest ally? Mental discipline is achievable and there is help available. Learn what works for you, practice, and change your life for the better.
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Re: There's room enough for all of us

Postby johnnythejet on July 24th, 2013, 3:12 pm

SecretAgentMan wrote:Valid points Johnny. I actually roll up our interpretations of 'facts' and 'logical deduction' into our perspective though because as you have seen people present facts all day long that support their interpretation of things. If it is one thing history teaches us it is that we are constantly revising our understanding of how things work. Things treated as 'facts' today can be questioned and turned on their heads tomorrow. My logical deduction and reasoning may not yeild the same results that your logical deducton and reasoning and both can be following a logical process, just rooted in different perspectives.

I agree with you 100% on being respectful of others beliefs even if you disagree. Having an open mind does not mean you have to agree with everything. It simply means you acknowledge that there is a possibility that what you disagree with is true. This is why I always do my best to avoid absolute statements, tell someone they are wrong, or lable things. Not only does it allow you to not have to eat crow someday, but it allows you to open up to new possiblilities you may have otherwise discounted or written off without ever having given them a chance.

This is actually turning out to be a really good discussion! :D


Yes, our perspective or position is based on how we wish to accept, ignore, arrange and manipulate actual facts or non-facts we claim to be facts. My point was simply that our own experience is only one factor in our perspective, and one that is often the most unreliable.

I also try to avoid absolute statements, and at times we forget to include the necessary disclaimers. If you go to the first page of this discussion, you first challenged my statement “So for every new twitcher, just like us, diet is highly likely not going to directly change anything. It just isn’t. Probably nothing will.”
While my statement sounded absolute and negative, I included multiple qualifiers to avoid that situation and to represent the truth accurately (“highly likely”, “probably”). I understand your point about why you avoid telling someone they are wrong, but I have no problem with you telling me you think I’m wrong. To me, that’s just being honest about your view on my contention.

Great discussion, indeed.
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Re: There's room enough for all of us

Postby G-Dog on July 24th, 2013, 4:24 pm

SecretAgentMan wrote:Perspective is EVERTYTHING. Everyone believes what they believe because it has been validated to them through their own experience.


But it doesn't make what they believe in to be correct. People aren't entitled to their OWN facts, it's either fact or it isn't. I have nothing against people sharing their views, that's what forums are for, but I prefer to draw from empirical evidence rather than speculation based on a narrow viewpoint, which is what personal experiences are. So I agree perspective is everything, that's why those who are new to this experience and racked with fear should be encouraged to pull back and look at the wider signals, not the latest theory! If you can do that you will see an overwhelming correlation these symptoms have with anxiety. The quicker you can get a handle on that, the quicker you can move onto more productive obsessions.. and let's face it we're all slightly obsessive :)
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Re: There's room enough for all of us

Postby SecretAgentMan on July 25th, 2013, 8:49 am

I totally get what you guys are saying. Trust me, for a long time I saw the world from the standpoint that something either is or it isn't. It can't be both. What I learned though is that people don't have to make up their own facts in order to see things completely differently. They can be looking at the exact same data but drawing different conclusions from it based on their understanding of how it fits into the big picture. Many times people never even have awareness that they are doing this because they don't understand how someone can look at what they are looking at and see things any differently.

For example, it is very likely a fact that a vast majority of people on this forum who attempted a diet modification saw no real improvement in their symptoms. I really can't argue with that and actually believe it is the case. From this fact and other anecdotal evidence many draw the conclusion that diet modification would play a minor role in the improvement of symptoms for BFS sufferers. It is also a fact however that there is indeed a condition known as Leaky Gut Syndrome (LGS) and it is being studied and linked to neurological disorders because of the strong link between the gut, immune system, central nervous system, and brain. When you start to dive into the finer details of immune system hyperactivity caused by LGS and the links it has to not only dietary sources of inflammation but also environmental and contactant it becomes apparent that the vast majority of people on this forum who modified their diets may not have had anywhere near enough information or guidance to rule out LGS and therefore could have easily missed it. If you haven't already seen it, here are the blood test results showing my level of sensitivity to nearly 100 of the most common foods people eat taken back in 2010: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/105 ... 20Test.pdf

Again, these are factual test results indicating the realness of inflammation caused by foods. Look at the sensitivity numbers for gluten and wheat. They are off the chart compared to most everything else. It is no wonder I saw such a dramatic reduction in my symptoms when I cut it out of my diet. Notice too how every single one of these foods has some level of sensitivity. The possibilities are endless when you consider the checkered backgrounds of everyone on this forum. It is entirely understandable that not everyone here would see the same benefits at cutting just one food out. How do they know they are not supplementing that food with something else that is even more inflammatory? Just because someone experimented with their diet and saw little or no success does not rule out LGS. It only indicates the factual results of supplementing one food with another. It is a conclusion that we jump to when we take trending results and make a determination based on those trending results. Just how many people here have LGS and don’t know it? We don’t have enough raw data.

Really you can’t get any more factual than the raw data. Any conclusions you ever base on raw data will contain assumptions. This is the nature of the duality we live in. We like things to be cut and dry, but I believe the real world exists in infinite shades of gray. The diagnosis of BFS is just a collection of symptoms that fit a model. The same goes for LGS or any other syndrome or illness. We are all different and each of us will have our own unique triggers and contributors. I’m focusing on the LGS route more because that was my experience with BFS. Others focus on anxiety because that was their experience, which I agree is equally important too by the way. It doesn’t make either of us wrong or right. It just reflects our unique and different perspectives based on our interpretation of the raw data we’re working with. Anyway, I hope this helps illustrate what I was trying to say. Cheers!
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Re: There's room enough for all of us

Postby aztwitchy on July 25th, 2013, 12:39 pm

G-Dog wrote:
SecretAgentMan wrote:Perspective is EVERTYTHING. Everyone believes what they believe because it has been validated to them through their own experience.


But it doesn't make what they believe in to be correct. People aren't entitled to their OWN facts, it's either fact or it isn't. I have nothing against people sharing their views, that's what forums are for, but I prefer to draw from empirical evidence rather than speculation based on a narrow viewpoint, which is what personal experiences are. So I agree perspective is everything, that's why those who are new to this experience and racked with fear should be encouraged to pull back and look at the wider signals, not the latest theory! If you can do that you will see an overwhelming correlation these symptoms have with anxiety. The quicker you can get a handle on that, the quicker you can move onto more productive obsessions.. and let's face it we're all slightly obsessive :)


I don't see any empirical evidence in relation to BFS....there are no solid facts related to the cause or cure. everything is theory at this point and even those theories fall apart mostly. some medications work for some people and make others worse. Excercise helps some people and makes others worse. vitamins help some people and make others worse. anxiety is either a cause, a symptom, or just an aggravating factor. we have no facts in my viewpoint.

Do we need to go researching every disease under the sun? no....but regardless of a cause of any health problem you are having...diet could possibly help.

SAM is suggesting people try diet...you guys are ignoring the people it does help and concentrated on the larger percentage it doesn't and\or who don't want to bother with it. Everyone has a choice to try it or not. I don't believe there is any harm in it....at all. He doesn't promise anything...he's giving people who are having a hard time with symptoms options to possibly help. so diet didn't work for you....why discourage people who would be willing to try it? because if diet doesn't work people might think they have ALS???!?!?!??! REALLY? those folks are already irrational....if it wasn't diet it would be something else: they saw a poster for a fundraiser for ALS research, or they saw it on TV, or they met someone and found out their initials were MND!!!!, or its cloudy out today, or the clock said 2:22pm.....they will find any excuse to put themselves back into a worry cycle...

how would diet not be a more productive obsession for some people?
"Health is a state of complete physical, mental and social well-being, and not merely the absence of disease or infirmity." ~World Health Organization, 1948
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Re: There's room enough for all of us

Postby christo on July 25th, 2013, 2:25 pm

Guys, I think this thread should stop because it's not going anywhere.

Facts :
- Diets will improve your symptoms if your BFS is food related (like gluten sensitivity/intolerance)
- Diets will do nothing for you (eventually it could worsen your symptoms and your mood) if it's not related to food

I dont think anyone want to discourage anyone to try the diet thing. It's actually just the opposite. When people are reporting that diet worked for them, others should be allowed to say it didn't, because it's a fact. And they should be allowed to say it without being told that they discourage others, it's just not true.

Peace !
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Re: There's room enough for all of us

Postby SecretAgentMan on July 26th, 2013, 8:46 am

No problem Christo. It was a good discussion and we're all still friends. Thanks to everyone who chimed in!
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Re: There's room enough for all of us

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