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Circulatory issues linked to fasciculations

PostPosted: February 10th, 2013, 12:39 pm
by TwitchyDoc
Today I have recieved a response from prof.Carvalho whom I asked about possible link between ischemia and fasciculations which I accidentallly found in an old study dealing with fasciculations and myokymia.
He kindly replied and the main point is (quote):
Ischemia changes axonal membrane excitability, which is a classical issue more recebntly investiagted by Porf Hugh Bostock.

I personally have been always prone to cold feet, hands and I do not do any sport or anything to improve my circulation. This would explain a lot as with bad circulation, the widespread involvement would make sense. That would mean a circulation improvement could help in longer term.

Just wanted to share something interesting.

Docen

Re: Circulatory issues linked to fasciculations

PostPosted: February 10th, 2013, 1:42 pm
by BFSBurger
Thank you for an uplifting post :) If there is any merit to this, it might explain why extremely hot baths 3 times a week make me feel so much better. When this all began I was ice cold in the hands, joints, and feet. Just one 20-30 minute bath stopped that problem for me for at least 2-4 days after the bath. It truly was therapeutic on some level. And not surprisingly, exercise does the exact same thing.

"ischemia causes a shortage of oxygen and glucose needed for cellular metabolism"

And maybe why Gatorade helps? Just tossing it out there...

BFSB

Re: Circulatory issues linked to fasciculations

PostPosted: February 10th, 2013, 2:24 pm
by TwitchyDoc
Yes, you are right. I will try the hot baths as well, anything to improve the blood flow, I read your post about that and was wondering how it could affect motor neurons (I admit I just did not think about ischemia). I remember I have always been very pale, my nails are white and I got called "vampire" :D
I have not tried Gatorade yet, it is on my todo list.

Re: Circulatory issues linked to fasciculations

PostPosted: February 10th, 2013, 2:33 pm
by jerry2
Sauna is known to help me ;-) I can not use hot baths in winter time because we don't have enough hot water for more than a shower as the sun cells are not working and water pump is heating up to 42 degrees C.

Re: Circulatory issues linked to fasciculations

PostPosted: February 10th, 2013, 3:51 pm
by G-Dog
My feet take ages to warm up...That said, I exercise almost daily and my pulse oximeter readings are always around 99 % SpO2, which would indicate a healthy flow of oxygen (at least to my fingers). My resting heart rate can go as low as 49, but it's been like that for years!

If Ischemia had some involvement here then I would expect a vast majority of diabetes patients to develop muscle twitching due to similar vasoconstriction. Also some people on here have dabbled with Niacin, which has a vasodilating effect...wouldn't this alleviate symptoms if Ischemia was responsible?

Re: Circulatory issues linked to fasciculations

PostPosted: February 10th, 2013, 4:59 pm
by BFSBurger
G-Dog wrote:Also some people on here have dabbled with Niacin, which has a vasodilating effect...wouldn't this alleviate symptoms if Ischemia was responsible?

Some have reported alleviation of symptoms with Niacin family supplementations:
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=18307

Twitchy - please consider adding Dead Sea Salt to the bath and doing right before bed time. I've sat in a bath with nothing in the water and it wasn't anywhere near as therapeutic. Its like night and day.

-BFSB-

Re: Circulatory issues linked to fasciculations

PostPosted: February 10th, 2013, 5:16 pm
by G-Dog
BFSBurger wrote:Some have reported alleviation of symptoms with Niacin family supplementations:
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=18307


That's Niacinimide, which is slightly different to Niacin as it doesn't cause the same vasodilation (flushing) effect.

Here's a post specific to Niacin..

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=15917

Re: Circulatory issues linked to fasciculations

PostPosted: February 10th, 2013, 5:39 pm
by BFSBurger
Sorry, you're right. I guess I am not clear on whether flushing is relevant for the beneficial effects. Do you feel it is? I was going to start the Niacinamide soon just to see what happens. Seems like the devil is in the details though. I get flushing from other things like Kale when I juice it, and I do not feel good. I believe I have a Kale allergy, so I have stopped. Because it seems to agitate, not help for me. Calming the system seems beneficial. Niacin - when I've had the flush before - seems to agitate and intensify the system. Not calm it. However, getting in a bath increases circulation without agitating. So I don't know if the flush really is necessary for the beneficial effects we're seeking? Maybe there's more than one type of increased circulation. This is all out of my realm so I have no clue.

BFSB

Re: Circulatory issues linked to fasciculations

PostPosted: February 10th, 2013, 5:50 pm
by G-Dog
I've never taken Niacin, I understand that you don't need to go much over the stated dosage before it starts causing problems with the liver (That's enough to put me off). Niacin is commonly used to lower cholesterol. As you say hot baths should give you the same result, without any nasty side-effects.

Re: Circulatory issues linked to fasciculations

PostPosted: February 10th, 2013, 5:57 pm
by BFSBurger
Are there any such concerns with Niacinamide doses? The poster in the above mentioned URL I think was doing 1,000mg daily. I've read about a max of 3,000mg daily. Do you think 1 gram daily for long periods is also bad?

BFSB

Re: Circulatory issues linked to fasciculations

PostPosted: February 11th, 2013, 11:32 am
by G-Dog
To be honest, I'm through taking any forms of supplementation. I think you should only supplement if you know for sure that your body is deficient in a certain vitamin, mineral etc. Vitamin D is a good example whereby those living in higher latitudes or with darker skin are less able to produce sufficient amounts of D3 (The variant made by the skin). I take D3 only because I've confirmed on a blood test that my levels are at the lower end of normal, plus it's abundant, cheap and carries a very low risk of toxicity.

Two things that helped me the most with the BFS was ditching the chair and working on my feet (see link below) and improving my diet.

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=18714

With regards to diet I adopted a 6:1 fasting routine...I.e. one day per week I reduce my daily calorie intake to 600 (1 qtr of recommended), so not quite as drastic as the name suggests! The standard 5:2 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5:2_diet) is primarily used for weight loss but has shown great promise for those dealing with inflammatory conditions.

Intermittent fasting reduces Insulin Like Growth Factor IGF-1...which has been shown to have an affect in stimulating tumour growth. If you get time there's a great documentary here that covers the detail:

http://vimeo.com/54089463

Apologies for going wildly off-topic here!

Re: Circulatory issues linked to fasciculations

PostPosted: February 11th, 2013, 2:20 pm
by aztwitchy
G-Dog wrote:I've never taken Niacin, I understand that you don't need to go much over the stated dosage before it starts causing problems with the liver (That's enough to put me off). Niacin is commonly used to lower cholesterol. As you say hot baths should give you the same result, without any nasty side-effects.


some naturopath said the flush is actually toxic to your system...totally unsure if that was true or if he pulled it out of his you know what....

Re: Circulatory issues linked to fasciculations

PostPosted: February 11th, 2013, 3:06 pm
by mwagner
I didn't read all the follow ups to this post, because I was so eager to respond to this. I have horrible, horrible circulation. I have freezing cold hands all the time, I have Raynaud's disease (idiopathic), and was thrilled to see that there is a correlation! Thanks for sharing, Docen!

Mitra

Re: Circulatory issues linked to fasciculations

PostPosted: February 11th, 2013, 3:52 pm
by aztwitchy
"which is a classical issue more recebntly investiagted by Porf Hugh Bostock."

how do we get in touch with this guy to ask some questions? :P

Re: Circulatory issues linked to fasciculations

PostPosted: February 11th, 2013, 8:33 pm
by BFSBurger
G-Dog wrote:Two things that helped me the most with the BFS was ditching the chair and working on my feet (see link below) and improving my diet.

Diet and movement / passive, mild exercise. Makes sense.

With regards to diet I adopted a 6:1 fasting routine...I.e. one day per week I reduce my daily calorie intake to 600 (1 qtr of recommended), so not quite as drastic as the name suggests! The standard 5:2 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5:2_diet) is primarily used for weight loss but has shown great promise for those dealing with inflammatory conditions.

Super interesting idea. It makes sense. Even when my twitching has been managed down to zero (like I finally got it back to this week), the only time things start to pop and jiggle are immediately after I eat. Digestion is hard on the body and creates inflammation temporarily. So those jiggles die down soon after. But I absolutely can see how cutting digestion activity 1 day per week would give the body yet another source of freedom from agitating / inflammation causing processes. I may just try that one day per week. No doubt my symptoms are at their least when I am not eating anything at all.

Intermittent fasting reduces Insulin Like Growth Factor IGF-1...which has been shown to have an affect in stimulating tumour growth.

My IGF-1 was high when i had it tested after my BFS began. It was of concern to me but of course my idiot doctors poo-poo'd it as being of no relevance. For some reason the medical community hasn't grasped the concept of at least trying to be in range on everything for overall good health. Apparently too complex of a concept for them.

BFSB