Reassuring studies : fascics very common in healthy people

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Reassuring studies : fascics very common in healthy people

Postby christo on January 4th, 2013, 4:21 am

Hey everybody,

In the past I know that there have been a lots of posts about scary studies. Today I would like to show that there is also reassuring studies and here they are :

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7515791

In this study, they searched for fasics in foot and legs of 25 healthy people. Guess what, they found fasics in 100% of them ! Some of the subjects had more than 100 fasics per minutes.


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9533790

On 122 healthy people tested, they founded fascics on EMG for 94 of them. Mean fasics per minute and per muscle : 8 ! Something I find also really interesting is that the number of fasics is correlated with hamilton scale, which is a tool used to measure depression, I suppose this could be the link to anxiety we all have strongly suspected.

They finally conclude that :

These results suggest that FPs are a very common phenomenon in the peripheral muscles of healthy persons.


I am sure the study that twitchdoc is pushing on this board will be one of the most reassuring one if they have enough data. Please help us, help yourself, find 10 minutes to answer the form and even 5 more to scan your EMG if you have one (or 2 or 3...). Do it, this will be good for all of us and for all future scared members !
Link to the topic : viewtopic.php?f=3&t=18339
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Re: Reassuring studies : fascics very common in healthy peop

Postby Kamila on January 4th, 2013, 9:44 am

Hi Christo!
Its intresting. I now fight with fascics, night tingless and numbness, buzzing 24 hours in foot.
I found some article which make me scared again and want ask what you think about it.
This is link http://articles.mercola.com/sites/artic ... teeth.aspx
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Re: Reassuring studies : fascics very common in healthy peop

Postby christo on January 4th, 2013, 12:02 pm

Ahah I think this is bu ll sh it :wink:

Seriously dont worry cause of this site!
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Re: Reassuring studies : fascics very common in healthy peop

Postby LApea on January 4th, 2013, 12:17 pm

A funny thing happened a couple of day ago. My husband and I were laying in bed to go to sleep, when he grabbed my hand and put it on top of his thigh. He sat quietly and asked it I felt it. Sure enough I started to feel his thigh twitch, twitch, twitch away. I was shocked and jokingly told him that I passed on my "disease" to him. He just turned around to go to sleep and said, eh I'm stressed..good night.

I guess that's how a person without anxiety deals with it, it didn't even phase him.

Thanks for posting.
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Re: Reassuring studies : fascics very common in healthy peop

Postby mwagner on January 4th, 2013, 7:39 pm

This is a great post and I'm amazed that more doctors don't seem to know this. I have a sneaking suspicion that many, many more people have muscle twitching than would ever be reported. That's because it's not always THAT noticeable, and the majority of people on this board, for example, have health anxiety or anxiety issues in general. So we notice it and freak out, whereas they notice it and ignore it.

Thanks for posting!
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Re: Reassuring studies : fascics very common in healthy peop

Postby Richard on January 5th, 2013, 8:36 am

This is a great post and something that i have reflected upon.

Thank you for taking the time to point this out.

-Richard
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Re: Reassuring studies : fascics very common in healthy peop

Postby jorge on January 5th, 2013, 11:37 am

If the twitching was the only problem, I would be so happy.
What about this combo of twitching, tremor, jerks, buzzing, pain, paresthesias, tingling and so on. I am pretty sure this is not normal.
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Re: Reassuring studies : fascics very common in healthy peop

Postby christo on January 5th, 2013, 1:11 pm

I see your point jorge, but main people fear here is ALS and tremor, jerks, buzzing, pain, paresthesias, tingling and so on ARE NOT symptoms of ALS, despite some patients may have reported them, just like they may have reported headache
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Re: Reassuring studies : fascics very common in healthy peop

Postby TwitchyDoc on January 5th, 2013, 1:52 pm

Well, unfortunately you are missing an important point - FP (fasciculation potentials) are just signs on EMG but it does not mean (and also it is not stated there) that the patients had visible fasciculations.
Also sure, it is known that feet and legs are prone to fasciculations because the axons are very long. But again, even this one references the other study suggesting that fasciculations above the knee are suspicious and should be investigated - there is not a single study describing what we have.
That is why I pushed the official study so hard...and still have had just several responses from community claiming "hundreds and thousands" of sufferers :)
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Re: Reassuring studies : fascics very common in healthy peop

Postby BFSBurger on January 6th, 2013, 11:53 pm

Twitchy:

Image

Why do you only type about the worst possibility all the time? What about the myriads of health conditions that include twitching above the knees? All over the body in fact. Even some people with primary Herpes 1 infection get twitching all over their bodies for months on end, until the virus settles down. Just look at the herpes forums sometime and search twitching. That's just one. Fibromyalgia sufferers, Chronic Fatigue Syndrome, Spinal Tuberculosis, Lyme, Mitochondrial Dysfunction patients, CIDP patients, Celiac Disease, and not to mention a couple handfuls of Channelopathies, Electrolyte Imbalances, etc etc etc ..... all can manifest with muscle misfirings that are above the knees. So if you're going to keep posting about this stuff, please post well-rounded information rather than this narrow-viewed one-track-mind information. I have a list a mile long now after 3 months of researching this stuff, of things which can and do cause muscle twitching. All over. Its fine to be pessimistic inside your own mind. But people are reading your posts, and despite being an educated guy you intentionally choose to ignore all the other possibilities that are out there, and focus on the least probable possibility every time.

there is not a single study describing what we have.

Yet there are tons and tons and tons of pages all over the internet on reputable web sites listing muscle twitches as symptoms of countless other conditions. And first hand reports from people who are diagnosed with those conditions.

That is why I pushed the official study so hard...and still have had just several responses from community claiming "hundreds and thousands" of sufferers

The first rule of understanding human beings, is that they are lazy. If you make something so complex that it takes significant effort and time to complete it, people are going to bow out. I saw the document for the study and it was so involved that I tabled it for "later", and later never came. I am sure many others have as well. An official study doesn't usually happen on a discussion forum in the form of a word document either. Its usually run by a clinic and physicians call, ask questions, and encourage follow up. The passive nature in which you've presented it doesn't encourage participation. That isn't a sign that we all have ALS. Its a sign that the way its being done isn't encouraging participation.
How I resolved my BFS within 1 year of onset:

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=19128
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Re: Reassuring studies : fascics very common in healthy peop

Postby TwitchyDoc on January 7th, 2013, 2:32 am

BFSburger: Where did I write anything about "worst possiblity"? Please quote me. I said "suspicious" which means it needs investigation....So please read well ;) It means that the twitching above the knee should be investigated because there is likely a cause of any kind, coming to ALS is you being a bit paranoid (which I understand and cannot you blame for). And this cause might be BFS, Isaacs, nerve roots irritation, myositis, channelopathy, neuropathy...

And no, pages on Internet are no medical proof of anything, especially if tons of people confuse fasciculations with twitching of muscles (like typically in MS patients).

As for the study, you obviously (which is a shame, really) did not even read the post - it not done "on the forum", is this done by world top-ALS specialists who agreed to use our data as secondary data to their real patients. Not some neurologists, but famous specialist who published hundreds of articles, books and coined e.g. Al-Awaji....
Sorry but how can you even try to create some theories if you miss basic infomation..

As for conditions you mention to include fasciculations, again, it is just partially true and for most of them, you would not have a blood test or EMG clean...As you alone mentioned, on Herpes it is just a short-lived phase (if they are fasciculations and not twitching of muscles, which is more likely). You rely on people on forums who have no idea what is fasciculations, myokymia, myoclonic jerks...and the difference is huge because their origin is entirely different. And that is also the reason the doctors doing BFS study wanted to have a video of fasciculations for each virtual patient, because they are aware of this issue. You should be as well.

I hope I did not offended you anyhow, I really do not want to. I just made clear few points you were missing.
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Re: Reassuring studies : fascics very common in healthy peop

Postby mwagner on January 7th, 2013, 11:12 am

The second study isn't restricted to the feet and calves alone, it includes the hand and concludes:

"These results suggest that FPs are a very common phenomenon in the peripheral muscles of healthy persons".

And, so many of us have FP on our EMGs although nothing else is wrong. My guess is if they see FPs on an EMG, the person may or may not be aware of their own twitching. Like I said, it may be "background noise" to some people, where it's "foreground noise" to anxious people like me. Honestly, if I were not so hyper aware of what my body does, I'm not always sure I'd pay attention to my twitches.

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Re: Reassuring studies : fascics very common in healthy peop

Postby mwagner on January 7th, 2013, 11:15 am

PS: That being said, TwitchyDoc has a point. Get out there and participate in the study, so we can add to the myriad of "good" studies of BFS. I'm totally convinced their new results will better understand our problem.

Note, I'm not participating, but that's because I never had blood work done, and really don't want to see the results of my EMG, because my health anxiety is through the roof. So, I can't with good conscience blame anyone else for not participating. But, if it is outright because you just don't feel like going through the work, think of all the good things it would do to help understand this disorder we have.

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Re: Reassuring studies : fascics very common in healthy peop

Postby jerry2 on January 7th, 2013, 12:02 pm

In my old days you would really scare me off with things like: The FP above the knee are really suspicious. That is exactly the attitude all my neuros had and the attitude I could think I am terribly ill because I have FP on my face, on my back, on my shoulders, hands... So I am suspicious (which was also said to me by neurologist) but until sombody could tell me what is the suspicion, I don't care. Obvously I was tested for most of the things that cause FP (excluding EMG for ALS), and there seems to be other conditions that cause this sh*t also.

I can be suspicious, but as long as I can use my hands (apart from the pain), I am ok.

But I see how your post could scare a lot of people here and put them down the pit. I had to read my A4 paper: "I don't have ALS" 10 times when I read your post ;-) But I am ok. I don't care what doctors think when it is obvious they don't have a clue about me. Nobody told me why I had 5 years of severe gastro problems and my colon is not normal since then. They made all the tests and conclude I have nothing. They obviously don't know what is wrong with me. And I stopped caring until I can still function to some level. I struggle day by day but that is just because I can cherish good days better...

Take care
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Re: Reassuring studies : fascics very common in healthy peop

Postby christo on January 7th, 2013, 12:33 pm

Wow, seriously guys I know we all are very anxious people here but how can you turn two very reassuring studies which conclusion that FP could be absolutely normal and found in healthy people in something scary ?
Come on, the studies here says that healthy people do have FP (and I dont see how FP going to a muscle won't make it twitch, visible or not), and that it doesn't announce anything sinister. Yes, one of the study say that above the knee they could be suspicious, but hey, until now even under the knees we would consider them suspicious otherwise we would be so anxious right ? So it's good news, that's all !

Also about the study pushed by twitchydoc, you dont need your bloodwork, and you dont even need your EMG, just fill in the form and send it. There is no reason for someone to participate.
And BFSBurger, you are not lazy, you deploy fantastic energy to try to find a cure to your symptoms. This study is worth the effort, it will take about 5 minutes of your time and it could lead to :
- find the cause of BFS
- find a way to test if someone have BFS for sure (what a dream !)
- find a way to treat/cure BFS
- find what makes BFS different from ALS and maybe help to cure ALS by understand better how they are different.

We are a community to help BFS sufferers, and this study is a way to help us, let's participate !
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Re: Reassuring studies : fascics very common in healthy peop

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